Sunny & 65 with Madi Schultz
Join Madi Schultz as she imperfectly pursues Jesus and emphatically encourages you to do the same. Through scripture, conversations, and testimonies— Madi's prayer is that you would walk away from listening to each episode with a greater affection for Jesus + experience the freedom He has for you in deeper ways.
| madi@sunnyand65.com | @madelinschultz_ | @mackandbenj
Sunny & 65 with Madi Schultz
Episode 69: Laura Wifler
THIS CONVERSATION Y'ALL. Laura Wifler is a wife, mother, author, and co-founder of Risen Motherhood. I am consistently impacted by her online presence-- her authenticity, humility, boldness always encourage me deeply towards the Lord! We cover a whole gamut of things-- disabilities, all things social media, aging and more! You're going to want to take notes on all the golden nuggets she has to share with us. Enjoy!
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FROM THE EPISODE:
#SA65Bookclub Book of the Month for March: Counterfeit Gods by Timothy Keller
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A World Wonder by Laura Wifler
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Laura’s Post: 6 Biblical Truths About Your Body and Beauty
A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Vanauken
Freedom of Self Forgetfulness by Timothy Keller
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Hey friends, welcome back to the Sunday in 65 podcast. I'm your host, maddie Schultz, and today we are joined by the wonderful Laura Wiffler. She has had a huge impact on my life through her writing and her online presence. You guys, grab your coffee, settle in, grab some pen and paper, because this is definitely one you're gonna wanna take notes for, enjoy. Okay, hi, laura, welcome to the podcast. Well, hi, maddie, thanks for having me. I am so excited to have Laura on the podcast today. She has been someone that over the last probably four to five years, maybe more, has genuinely impacted my faith via the gram and her newsletters and podcasts, through her writing and life and, just truthfully, through her humility and honesty. I feel like when I was thinking about Laura, at least via the gram world, that's what I think of you just your humility and honesty. So, laura, jazzed to have you on here would be a vast understatement, but would you tell us the quick gist about yourself?
Speaker 2:Oh well, thanks, Maddie, that's super nice. I'm gonna come on here anytime. I need a little pick. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, the one on one about me.
Speaker 2:So I am in central Iowa, I am a mom to three kids and a wife to Mike, and I also have the privilege of running Risen Motherhood, which is a nonprofit organization that is designed to just help moms connect their faith to their motherhood, and so we do that through podcasts and articles and social media and all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:So it is a pleasure and a privilege to run that company or that organization. And then I also have this other arm side of me where I'm a writer and kind of an entrepreneur, and so there are lots of other things I do. I love writing books for both adults, but kids probably are my favorite so I have the privilege to have being able to write children's books, and I also write poetry. And then I just recently launched what's called the Kiddlet Lab where I help aspiring writers and authors write their children's picture books. So all sorts of things. I feel like that doesn't even touch kind of some of the other things that I do, but in general I'm kind of a big dreamer and got a lot in my mind and a lot that I try to get done.
Speaker 1:So I love that so much. Random question right off the bat Do you think you'd ever do? I know it's called Kiddlet Lab Would you? Do you think you'd ever do helping people write like adult books, if you will?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, I've already got the Lit Lab. We would just call the Lit Lab. Oh, cool, and we have definitely talked about it, okay yay, yay. So my husband and I we check it out, we check it out, but we would want to at some point. I feel like right now, focusing on Kidd Picture Books is so good where it's that really niche audience, but already I'm like, oh, I would love to bring in middle school authors, young adult authors and nonfiction poetry, it'd be fun, cool.
Speaker 1:Okay, tell us about when you came to know and follow Jesus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I feel very honored to be able to say that I don't ever know a day without Jesus. I was raised in a Christian home and I prayed the prayer when I was maybe five or six years old and I remember I had just gotten home from Awana's and had some questions about things and so I sat on my dad's lap and he explained the gospel and I prayed the prayer and I remember my mom and my brothers were brushing their teeth and they poked their head around this hallway wall and I remember all of them clapped and cheered for me. So that was just fun. It's a core memory for me, for sure, and I'm just thankful that I think I was raised with parents who kind of did grace-based parenting early on, before it was the thing, and they really showed me Jesus all the way.
Speaker 1:So so cool In that time. So you've followed, you've known Jesus. You've never known a day without knowing Jesus. Praise the Lord. Do you feel like there were I mean, there probably have been seasons of ups and downs. Do you feel like there was another pivotal moment in your walk with the Lord where you feel like I want all of this, I want to surrender and devote my life to this not, oh, my whole family's this, and I do believe this and I do trust this. Was there a time when, kind of the rubber met the road and you were like, oh, I got to make this my own a little bit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can think of multiple times throughout my testimony that I feel like it's just been what am I going to choose type of moments? You know and Lord, I'm still going to choose you. And for sure I think in high school, like, I think, a lot of people who were raised as believers from a young age in high school, I had a friend who died when he was 18, we were 18, in a really terrible car accident that really affected our community and we had another person to end up as a paraplegic and there was just a cold car full of young men and really hard and really close friend of mine.
Speaker 2:And so I think that was a moment in high school where, for the first time, I, beyond things like moving to a new town and being a kid and, you know, meet friends. It was the first time I really experienced some suffering that you start to ask you know why God, what the world, why would you take him so young? And that was a wrestling I remember for a few years and it almost, in a sense, I think, planted a seed that over time I think I've always been really blessed to be connected to believers, meaning everywhere I've gone, I have found good friendships God's been really kind with that that other people who love the Lord. But then, after I'd gotten married and we had our daughter, she was diagnosed with disabilities and I know we'll talk about that a little. But that was certainly a testing of my faith and that was when the first time I started to experience doubts about God.
Speaker 2:So it always had a wrestling of are you good or I don't understand, or I must need better theology or something. But that season it was my daughter with disabilities compounded with a lot of other suffering, just kind of we've grown up suffering you know it's hard for things that started to make me question whether God even existed.
Speaker 2:So my theology was maybe too. It explained pretty well the concept of evil. It explained to a semi-satisfactory spot. It's nothing for a satisfactory, but it got me to this point where I felt like my theology can handle. Is God good? Does God love me? Will he give me good things? Why does he allow bad things to happen? All of that felt pretty locked out.
Speaker 2:So, of course, I went to this spot of does it even exist at all? And so that has been a persistent wrestle that I'm fairly public about, and so I think that that is something that is not over for me, and I don't know if this is something that the Lord will have me wrestle with until I meet him face to face, but something I'm becoming more comfortable with, where I think in that season it was very scary and very terrifying to have thoughts that were new, that I never had before. So in those are those moments, you know, where I feel like you do have a choice, and faith is not all high tops of mountain tops and roller coasters and candy canes, but it's. Those are the moments where you have to decide who am I gonna follow, what am I gonna believe, even at times? What do I want to be true? You know, I always want the gospel to be true because it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1:I always come back to that.
Speaker 2:I just want. I want it because I know that it is the best, most reasonable, most plausible, most incredible explanation for the stuff that we go through and when you start really looking at it.
Speaker 1:I love that and I think you've probably. I know for me you've been so encouraging when you have spoken about that honestly and maybe you're writing in different things that it's like, oh no, this is normal for us to go through doubt, go through seasons of doubt, to ask these hard questions. I think oftentimes I know I even like have friends off top of my head that they're like I'm doubting and that must be wrong, and it's like I know you're human, that you're wrestling with this and God's not upset at you for that. He's not expecting you to have perfect faith, since we never do. We don't even remotely have perfect faith. So the rest of ends up being sweet, and so I know your voice has been encouraging that. So thanks for sharing that. If you're willing, would you tell us about a season of suffering and how you saw the Lord show up in it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I probably would go back to that season I was pointing to a little bit earlier, when my daughter was diagnosed with disabilities. We'd just moved to Chicago suburbs, didn't know anybody, knew people in town. Family was seven hours away, so not even close to have them come and help. My husband was working very heavy hours at the time, kind of seven days a week like that whole type of thing, and I was very isolated and so in that season there were a lot of things. We had three close people pass away to us. There was just all these things.
Speaker 2:My dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's or it was sharing more about that. That's what was happening. He wasn't diagnosed but he was sharing with us about it. It was getting worse. There was all these things. All that to say that season.
Speaker 2:One of the things that was incredible to me is that while I was very isolated from my family whom my family is like everything right, there is the whole, they are my lifeline. I love them, but I was separated from them. God really taught me the value of the local church and the value of the body, coming around you and being like family, and I don't think I had ever really understood the power of what the church can and should look like. But in that season I think my church, who I was brand new at, didn't hardly know anybody. They just modeled it so incredibly of coming around me, bringing me meals, watching my kids for doctors appointments, counseling, kind of us as a married couple, like there were just so many things and I have been so grateful because I think I've carried that on as I've moved again and now I am my family.
Speaker 2:I literally live next door to my brother. I mean, that's how close we are. And yet I see the beauty of Christian friendships and being able to depend on one another and I think my eyes were really open to the way that it doesn't require that family of origin for us to support, serve and love one another and to kind of be there for each other. So I think that was a season where a paradigm really shifted for me, and I know that everyone was raised with that. But it was a pretty big shift in my life to then start to say, okay, I can depend on these friends or I can be that friend for some of us. Those were some big things out of that.
Speaker 1:That's really encouraging. What is a lie that you've believed, that God has had to, or maybe still is, uprooting in your heart, and what gospel truth has he been reminding you to squash that lie?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it's like a lie. I think that right away, what came to mind is just this idea of body image and what beauty looks like and the desire to look like what we see celebrated in America and on social media and online. And I think I was talking to someone recently and we were talking even about plastic surgery and Botox and all these things, and there's this element of like. Is there ever a reason to do these things? That's like pure.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like one of these big questions.
Speaker 2:I don't even want to get into unpacking this, because, oh my goodness, it was just but there wasn't.
Speaker 2:We were talking about that and one of the things I'm answering my own question right I'm saying is there ever a reason to do these things?
Speaker 2:And then the next thing I said in my mouth was just kind of like, but how, if I do those things, is that trusting in God's design after the fall, like that my body is gonna age, things are gonna sag, that things aren't gonna look good, they're not gonna be according to what American standards are?
Speaker 2:And it was just sort of this moment, I think, for me where I was like I want to trust God's design is good for us as women and what our bodies look like, and even what he's allowed after the fall, that there is still, there's so goodness to my body, you know, and that I want to trust, like that he knows things are gonna get old looking and he knows things aren't gonna fit the way they did and he knows these things. And so I think there was just even more recently, of wanting to go back to remember that what God has given me in my body is good, even if it doesn't look right or work right or isn't the ideal according to America, but I think it is to him, and that he knows that this body is gonna decay and break down and yet he still calls it good. And so I think there's just been a continual work in my heart of body image and being grateful for the body that God's given me.
Speaker 1:That's so encouraging, and we're gonna talk more about this later too, so I'm gonna save all those words for them. But again, yeah, just another way that, yeah, you've been encouraging, speaking honestly, to, I'm sure, so many women, including myself, fighting that lie, fighting that rat race, and so one thing that God has made you passionate in talking about, as you mentioned your daughter, is disabilities. Talk to us all about this.
Speaker 2:You could just all of it, just to talk about it. Yes, yeah, disabilities definitely near and dear to my heart. My daughter has a rare genetic disease which causes global developmental delays. Mostly intellectual disabilities is how it would display to most people, and that has certainly given me a passion for this topic and a desire just to, I think, educate. Because as I look back over my life, actually it's kind of funny because there are a lot of people in my life who had intellectual disabilities at the Lord Place and as I look back, I'm like, oh God, you were preparing this, but I didn't really put all those things together until I had my daughter. But the thing that I realized with my own daughter was that, wow, I have a lot to learn and I even felt I was kind of uncomfortable with knowing how to talk to other kids about it or talk to other people. Do I say disabled, do I say a person with disabilities? Or do you say special needs? Or do you say disabled person, all these language things, right? I kind of realized that no one's really talking about it. And this is a really important conversation in order to honor people that are made in the Imago Day, that are made in the image of God, and so it's something that I feel like is sort of a side thing that I enjoy.
Speaker 2:As I was learning, I tried to help educate others, because I remember how uncomfortable I felt. And now I have a nephew who's significantly disabled. I have a close, my husband's close cousin is an adult it was significant disabilities and then we have another extended family with disabilities significant ones and so it's a round right. That's kind of an unusual to be related to and I was like, ok, lord, I got a lot of people around that I can talk to and learn from, and he had given me a time in life to be able to help educate others and just really take down some of the scariness of the conversation and to help parents feel like they can know how to equip their own children, interact with kids with disabilities.
Speaker 2:Because the one thing I so think of I think one of the things that God has really worked in my life is that I have much higher sensitivity to someone who is alone or looks lonely. And I think it's because I often think about my own daughter and that she is often alone and that people don't always engage with her or kids don't always include her in playing and I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful when another kid is like hey, do you want to play with me? And that just means the world. And I think that God has even just given me eyes to see where someone maybe is harder to hang out with or is uncomfortable and doesn't necessarily have disabilities.
Speaker 2:This is different from you. And yet, seeing the value in saying, hey, I have agency and I'm able to come over to this person and I'm able to come in with a smile and a couple of words and some conversation really change the course of their day. And I think, recognizing when we have that kind of, in a sense, power, like a social power, to extend that to others who are less fortunate. And so I want to help educate families to be able to say, okay, I am not disabled, so how can I use that social power in a sense, to be able to be kind and compassionate and loving towards those who don't have it?
Speaker 1:And I think you've been so. Like you said, it can just seem scary in the sense that you don't want to say the wrong thing, so then you just don't say anything at all. So it has been so helpful because I feel like there are a lot of people that are longing to come alongside and love people with disabilities and families that have kids with disabilities better, but just not knowing and then feeling like you're in the wrong if you ask. So it's kind of like then you don't and then it's even more isolated. So it's been so helpful. Okay, I'm sure there's a trillion things, but what are a few more of the things that God's taught you through your journey with a child with disabilities?
Speaker 2:Oh man, I think he's. I mean, he's just taught me a lot about grief and, just like the disabilities, it's the deepest grief I've ever known, and I have some very deep griefs, but it's an. It's an interesting one because it feels a little different than death, where you have to learn how to go on right. There's a finality to death and you're like this is my new life now, so I have to learn to operate within it, which is a challenge in and of itself. But disabilities you don't know what you will grieve and you don't know what will next day will hold. And so I think that that has been an interesting facet of it, of trusting God with the unknown and not just like, oh, I know that, my, you know, this person I don't know. It just feels a little different than losing someone, where instead you may lose that person little by little by little, with a. If you have someone has a disability that is degenerative, you know, and that would be like my father has Parkinson's, which is a disability, and I'm losing him very slowly. Or like my daughter, you know, you kind of think, okay, I felt like a loss, or completely, but then, as she has aged, we've discovered, oh, actually she's going to do a little bit more. So then there's like this weird transition of hope and joy and incredible things ahead, but yet she's still not where you would hope. You know, one mother would hope that their child is.
Speaker 2:That being said, I think it's given me real compassion for people struggling through all sorts of griefs, because you start to learn that, while everyone's suffering is unique, it is not special, and what I mean by that is that there are themes and currents that run that are exactly the same for every person in the heartache, and so so much of what I've experienced through the grief of disabilities can help, I think, apply to other people's situation.
Speaker 2:Even if it's a miscarriage, even if it's, you know, a loss of a parent, even if it's just a sadness of a loss of a job, a lot of those themes run, the same theme of feeling powerless, the theme of feeling hopeless, of not being able to feel like you can go on wondering where God is, of asking, you know, what's the point of life, what's the point of my life or their life.
Speaker 2:So so many of those things, and I've been challenged, I think, to enter into other people's griefs and somewhat like Job's friends when they did it right, you know, of just being silent and being available and there for them and not needing to fill the space. I think that's been a big lesson learned. And then also just to acknowledge how hard things are and that it's okay to cry, it's okay to grieve, and you should cry, you should be angry Like you have every right to be angry that this is not the way life should go, and that applies to all griefs. And so I think there's just been some neat things that are universal about grief, that prepare you to help other people through it.
Speaker 1:For anyone who's experiencing grief, so I love that. What encouragement do you have for the mom or dad who has a child with disabilities?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say it's okay to be sad and it's okay to be angry and it's okay to ask God, why Bring all those questions to him? Because he can handle it and he knows you have them anyway, you know, so voice them to him. And then I think it's a matter of going forward and saying, okay, what do I need to grieve today? Versus what am I projecting out and I have not been asked to grieve, and that sorting through that is hard because more than likely, that parent is grieving things that aren't real. They are grieving predictions, statistics, you know things, just fears that they have. And so sorting through those things will ultimately help that person to walk forward.
Speaker 2:So I would encourage them to say, okay, what are the things I have not been asked to grieve yet? Then set them aside, put them over there, don't even think about them, but deal with today. And you can be angry and you can be sad and you can ask God, why about today? But then walk forward in hope and expectancy that God can do more and even if he doesn't, he is still good and he loves your child. Somehow he loves that child even more than you do, and that is a comfort to me that I always bring back to mind.
Speaker 1:That's really helpful. What advice or guidance would you give someone who's listening today, who maybe they have a friend with a child with disabilities and they're longing to come alongside them and love them and serve them well? What are tangible ways that they could do that? I know each person's answer might be different in that, but then, coupled with that long question, what are you longing for people in your own life to know or understand about being a mom to a child with disabilities? What would you say to them?
Speaker 2:So, in terms of coming alongside a parent who has a child with disabilities, I think remembering that disabilities is a long game. So, again, it's not even like a pregnancy. You know, we bring meals for the first six, eight weeks, which is a gift. A parent who has a child with disabilities is probably walking through years of diagnosis, is definitely walking through a lifetime of therapies, medical appointments, insurance questions. It's a part time job for the rest of your life and so that parent could always use a meal. I mean, every parent could what who might get it right? But there is an element of don't forget. Don't forget that she is probably it's a year out and they've started this.
Speaker 2:Try to remember that this is still going on in her life and that this is something that, even a few years out, you can, you can ask how are you doing? And that's one phrasing that people often feel like well, how do I ask about her? I don't want to offend and even just saying like hey, do you guys have any doctor's appointments or therapies coming up? I'd love to pray for that, you know? Or let me know how I can do that, and just by phrasing it that way, it's not what's the diagnosis? Or, you know, tell me how you're grieving today. But I think it nudges that door that that parent can either say, hey, I'm just, oh, this is so hard. You know we're walking through this child is running away and spitting and you know it won't sit down or whatever. Or they can be like, yeah, we're just like trying to figure out our letters, like they can say whatever they want and it helps them know that you care, you remember this is a real thing of their life that they're dealing with, and I think then too it just it's kind of a safe way to open that door.
Speaker 2:So that's what I would say. It's just remember, disabilities is a long game and as a friend you know, you may not even necessarily be needed right in the thick at the beginning, but maybe even just wait and say, okay, I'm going to put this on my calendar for six months from now, and this is a recurring event on six months, and see how she is to bring her a meal, whatever that may be.
Speaker 1:That's super helpful. Remember even how you said it's a part time job. I feel like that's just helpful to put it into perspective for people that don't have a child with disabilities. So I'm even encouraged to put that in in the calendar, just like tangible things. I feel like that's super helpful. Thanks for being honest and like leading the way and helping us, helping people that don't have kids with disabilities to be able to come alongside your writing. I've already has made such a big impact and I feel like we'll continue to. I know some parents that have children with disabilities that I know it has encouraged. So, yeah, just yeah.
Speaker 1:Thanks for your willingness to talk about it and to also like I feel like one of the things, you wrote one post and maybe you're like there's many posts.
Speaker 1:We're like someone comments or people are they misunderstand you or they misunderstand whatever, and I just I think I appreciate too. One thing that I feel like I've been sifting through lately is like even if you just speak to the person next to you, like you run the risk of being misunderstood, like that's just the risk we always run, whether you're writing and posting and writing books or you're just speaking to a friend, but the risk is like so worth it. And I know you've like, with your posts and stuff, you've like talked about that too. It's like you know you're running the risk of being misunderstood, even from maybe other moms that have children with disabilities. So I just appreciate the bravery and the courage because, like you're and your humility of like I might be misunderstood, and that's okay and I want to talk about it. I'm not like saying I have it all figured out. So I just appreciate you in that sense too.
Speaker 2:So yeah, well, I think there's something too that I've talked, not as much about this. But as people, each of us have individual sufferings, right, and so often we are very easily offended about our personal sufferings. And that's where, you know, with disabilities it's like I am on. I'm committed to not getting offended if somebody said you know, oh, she has, I don't know she's special, or you know she's a special whatever, like, oh, those are super abilities or whatever. I'm not gonna get offended about that. That is not worth my time.
Speaker 2:And I know like I'm such a big advocate of believing the best in people and wait, but they try and they are wanting that. They meant that as a compliment. It wasn't, but they meant it as a compliment and so I will receive it as such. Because there's this quote and I don't know who said it, but they said the mature believer is easily edified and I have loved that quote and that just they were referring to like sermons or something you know where, like Christians can kind of pick apart from men's and that I'm a pastor didn't do this and they didn't do that right, and they spoke too loud and they drank too much water, whatever. It's like no, no, no, let's take what we can, and that actually is a sign of a mature believer.
Speaker 2:And so that's something that I wanted to apply to different areas where maybe I am more knowledgeable about a topic and I do know, you know, oh, that didn't sound so good, but I've been the person who has said the thing that doesn't sound so good, and how grateful am I for grace, how grateful am I for someone ignoring that. And so online is just this weird. I'm gonna educate you and I'm just committed to being like no, I'm gonna believe the best in you and take the heart of what you meant it, and I think it's something we can all learn from. Like anyone with your suffering, stop being so sensitive, stop.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. Wait, can you say the quote one more time? The mature believer is easily edified. So good, and I feel like that's a perfect segue into talking about social media. Yeah, yeah, I'm excited. Okay, again, I know for me personally, you and Emily, you've been such sweet, encouraging, liberating voices to me regarding the social media space. So again, talk to us all about social media.
Speaker 2:Oh, I have so many thoughts about social media, you know, I will say first it's important, I think, to know about me is that I think I have a high threshold for social media.
Speaker 2:So I talked to a lot of friends and stuff that's going on on social media. It's really getting them down and they're really bummed out. It's anxiety inducing and I probably am more of the side of like I can close that and put it away. So I think it's an important note that I believe social media is much like any addiction that we can have. The person who drinks tons of cups of coffee or the person who can go to a bar and some people can't resist and other people won't even drink.
Speaker 2:And so social media is a lot like that and I think we need to get that framework on and start to understand who am I when it comes to social media. What is my tolerance level? So you have to start there and then, once I think you know that tolerance level, then you have to have a right view of what social media is, and I often say social media is a tool. It's much like a chainsaw that it can be incredibly dangerous if you do not know how to use it and you pick that thing up and start running it.
Speaker 2:But it can also be really powerful and helpful and do things that you couldn't do on your own, and it can be this great tool. If you've read the instruction manual, you've had some lessons. You're wearing your safety glasses like it's actually awesome. So people think social media is a teddy bear. That's how they often interact with it. It is a toy. No, it is a tool to be used, and I think so.
Speaker 2:Then, when we have the right mindset, we can then engage in the right way on socials. And I think then from there it's just asking okay, who am I gonna be in this space and what do I wanna stand for and be known for? And those are big questions and there's a lot of good answers to those. That's gonna look different for everybody, and that's where I go back to believing the best and saying, okay, for one person, they're gonna do a bunch of influencing and they're gonna tell you where to buy stuff, and personally I don't have a ton of judgment around that because I don't know their heart, and I think there's a way to serve women by saying here's where I found my jeans. I'm like thank you, thank you very much. You should earn some money from that Because I help me.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, but then others will say, no, I'm gonna just speak about the Bible and I'm gonna only post, and I can't ever share a link because that violates my conscience. And I'm like more power to you, honor your conscience and give me the word. And so, and I still think we have enough space in our minds for women and men, people who aren't social media, to do it different. We can only think of how we would do it. We can only think of what we believe is most good. And I wanna push on that and say you do not corner the market on what honors God. And there are lines, right, there are lines that I think we can all agree on, but there's a lot of conscience at play with social media that people don't take into account. I will stop.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna stop talking too much.
Speaker 1:Don't stop, don't. Oh my gosh, I love all of that. The chainsaw analogy is just so helpful and you saying people think it's a teddy bear and it's not. What I hear you saying is there's so much freedom, there's so much freedom, like there's so much freedom in the Lord, in all spaces. But I think sometimes, for some reason and I like not speaking for all women, but I feel like sometimes us women can fall under two camps of it's evil and I can't handle it, so no one should be able to handle it, kind of like you said, since maybe their threshold is different, which is totally okay, and so then you almost then feel this shame. I know I've felt maybe some shame from some women that have a different threshold and I think that's one thing that the Lord continually has been showing me, even in the last two years of, like Maddie, you're free from everyone and they're free from you. So it's like it's both ways that he was. Like I can often think my threshold, like you're saying, put it on other people and that's just not true.
Speaker 1:So everything you said so helpful and I feel like a few of my friends and I we have this specific conversation on repeat a few times a year about the constant tension that we do feel regarding social media, feeling me and these couple of friends like feeling called by the Lord to this space, at least currently, that can change, him giving us this love and desire to connect with people on it and share and create, and has given us, maybe, a threshold that, like is able to do that, all the while battling our own sin and our own boundaries and our capacity.
Speaker 1:How do you navigate the tension of longing to create and God giving you a desire to share your poetry and some of your life on there and then needing to step away? Will we just always feel this tension with this and everything? Maybe on the side of heaven of like? Some days I think like, oh gosh, I'm feeling free and, lord, I'm healthy in this space, and then it could be just like the next day and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm still enjoying it, but I'm, oh gosh, oh, dang it. Like I, yeah, okay, go.
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean, you are not alone. My friends and I talk about this all the time. I cannot tell you. And it is funny cause we were actually recently I was talking with some friends and they were talking about another friend Sorry, that's confusing, but another friend got off Instagram when it was like unthinkable. You know, like five years ago you didn't leave Instagram, but today it's pretty normal for people to be like I'm out and or I'm taking a year off, I'm taking every other week, I'm taking a month. It's like very normal, and so I'm hopeful for that change, that I think there's a lot of great freedoms that have even become more culturally acceptable for socials.
Speaker 2:But I know, you know, that, yes, this is a tension that will struggle with the total glory but, that being said, I think it's a good wrestle and I think it's a wise one that shows that we want to glorify God in the space. And my friend Amy Ganna and I we always joke that we're the remnant on social media. You know there will be a remnant on social media. We're the big part of that. I love it, I know, and so you'll be a part of it, cause I was like great, we need more, cause we don't maybe wrestle with those feelings quite as much of like check it out today or this month, or just plan a break, and yet we because of conversations we have so many friends. I am asking that question well, lord, should I get off Like, will you make that known to me, make that known to me if I should be done or if I should keep it or I can't? I'm just not called to the space anymore, and so I think that that asking of the Lord is really important and it's a right thing for us to do, of continuing to have that communion and conversation with the Lord, about social media being where we should spend time at.
Speaker 2:But I also think it's okay if you're someone who's like hey, I've wrestled with that, I know I'm supposed to be here and I don't need to rework that, and I think there's like sometimes a current in our water right now that, as Christians, you should really struggle staying. Oh, that should be. You should really constantly evaluate that, like are your motives really pure? Nobody asks me about my motives whenever I'm like doing my work on my computer and like if I were to put that on the sub stack or a blog, people aren't questioning my work. But there's something about socials that I think, as believers kind of say, hmm, like, is that really? And I admit, it's a different way it's the junk food, right, it's the junk of media. So there should be a cap of caution there, of course.
Speaker 2:But, that being said, I also think that when you settle something between you and the Lord, you don't have to keep going back over it, and that if you are walking in stuff with him, that he will prick your conscience. When the time is right, he will speak to you and you will know hey, I need to go back and reevaluate. And so, for me, how I feel, like my, what I see as my role today at least, is that it is a way to steward the work that I do, to help others receive it and, hopefully, encourage others, but I see it as a stewardship question. Okay, lord, you've given me these gifts of writing. You've given me a gift of being a published author, of being somebody who can help people learn how to write books, and I believe that those are things that you've called me to in this season, that you have specially gifted me in.
Speaker 2:I've had it affirmed by others, I've got the opportunity. Like the way, I've made decisions right. Do you have the gifting, do you have the opportunity and do you have the desire? Those three things, and if it honors God, and golly, there's a space that I can publish it as there's an opportunity. I've got the gifting because writing it seems like people are responding and I have the desire because I want to be there. Well, there's freedom in the Lord for that, thank goodness you know, Thank goodness yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think that that's kind of how I work with it is that I see this as a stewardship opportunity. I see it as something that I believe can help bless others. And there are questions, right Like I remember one time this is Riz and Motherhood Emily and I we really started our first book and it was a bestseller like instantly. And I posted that, me, laura Wiffler, I posted that to our stories and was like I think I said something oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm admitting that's Maddie. I said look what you did, right, cause that's what all the authors say. It's like this, thank you, this is because of you. And I post, I hit post and it was like 10 minutes later and I boxed Emily and I'm like, and I'm feeling kind of uncomfortable about something I just did. She's like what did you do?
Speaker 2:And I was like look, this is the early days of Riz and Motherhood. It's a wow, wow bless and I'm just doing what everybody else did.
Speaker 2:But I realized that is not. My conscience is not comfortable with that kind of humble breath. And so listen to that, Listen to this. You're adopting you in those areas. And again, I think somebody can post their book was a bestseller. I see solid believers doing that all the time. And what believe the best? Let the spirit predict them. But for us, real quick, I realized that was not right, and so that would be a good example of like I wanna stay in this space. Are there things like that that the spirit is convicting you on, specifically, that you can say, hey, I think if I can stay in this space, I have to stay within these guardrails and they're not the same guardrails as somebody over here. But ask God to show you those, and I think that'll help too.
Speaker 1:That's so encouraging. I mean essentially, yeah, follow the spirit's prompting and I think the yeah, gosh, there's just so many thoughts, because it's like I do think that there are so many, like you said, good questions to be asking ourselves and I do think that sometimes I know for myself I can just not wanna ask myself the question. You know what I mean, and I think I've had conversations with my friends too that like since social media I mean we're all coming up on over a decade of being in this space. Like that's wild. That's a long time to kind of have like maybe for most of it blindly been on it. Like maybe we weren't asking those questions six, seven years ago that we are now. But just to encourage whoever's listening and I'm always encouraging myself like sometimes, like there's a lot of times that I'm in like a good space with it, and so then I like I ease up on my guardrails a little bit, like I'm like no, I'm good, or like I don't need to have like any check-ins with a friend, or like if I've like known that that's what's been helpful for me, and then I just kind of like decide to not ask myself the questions and kind of become blind by my own sin, if even I'm yeah. So I guess what I'm saying is I mean encouraging myself and whoever's listening, and what you're saying, too, like keep asking the hard questions. But I do like how you said, you don't have to come back and re-wrestle through everything. So maybe, like for me I think it was gosh, was it? Was it last year's or even two years ago that all of a sudden I so I had in 2020, I took a six month break off social media.
Speaker 1:In 2021, I took a 10 month break off social media and I think, after coming back, I was so excited to come back and it almost was like this wrestle of like gosh, is it so bad that I'm excited? And I'm like asking, I'm like cause I'm like really excited, and I was like I'm excited to come back, like and you know, but you're like, is this wrong? No, and I went through this season where I was having to wrestle with, I think, some people that I really looked up to, which, again, this was their threshold, and they didn't they totally didn't like put this special on me. But some people I so looked up to in my life and I'm like walking closely with and I'm just, they're amazing, godly humble women. They weren't on it and I think I was like that must be what I need to do, because I really look up to them and like, which again? And they weren't even putting it on me. But it was sweet to wrestle through with God and with, like honestly, both of them, cause they were like, they weren't even trying to put that on me, but I was just honest. I was like, oh yeah, I think I'm doing this because you did this and I like love you and you're wonderful, which is not bad, but God had to bring me this place of Maddie. No, like I've given you a joy in it.
Speaker 1:You love connecting with people. You love sharing. You love photos Like that's always been in school. You love sharing visual things Like I've put that in you and the enemy that's where I can really I'm always battling with the enemy of like the enemy. I'm asking God, okay, god, I know that I can tend towards in sin, wanting prominence. Okay, so I gotta be watchful of that on this space especially. Okay, god.
Speaker 1:And then here I come to the middle, by God's grace, and then boom to the other side where I'm like don't say anything, don't speak, don't stay in your house and be quiet, and like you're bringing attention to yourself, like the enemy can just. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, by God's grace, I feel like in the last like two years, year and a half, just bringing me freedom of like. No, that's a lie. God, like you're saying where have you gifted me? Where do I love it?
Speaker 1:You know those questions. What'd you say? Where are you gifted? Where's there an opportunity, the desire, the desire and gifting Okay, I love that. So just ultimately, again the Lord bringing me freedom of like. It's gonna look different than these two wildly wonderful women. So I think, again, so grateful for you and Emily speaking into that space. Not that your answers are going to be the same as mine, but I didn't think I had a category for someone that was like asking the questions and then staying and feeling the freedom too, you know. So I'm just grateful that you guys have led the way in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and if you watch us, we do it very different, right? We both need a crazy different, and Emily will take way more breaks and she will. She had fatigues quickly. I know she wouldn't mind answering this and me saying that, but we have the same core philosophy on social media and the use there and I think I like. What you're saying is that keep asking the hard questions. I guess I don't wanna see the hard questions causing so much anxiety for people. Yeah, yeah, the conversations that I end up in is that. I mean, it is just it's heavy and it's hard and these are big. You know, for some of these women that I'm talking with, this is their livelihood, right, their business is on here, Like there's a lot of real messy connection.
Speaker 1:So I get it.
Speaker 2:But I also think that I think we need to keep having those check wins and that's like great for hey, a quarterly check in for social media is good for anyone. But to kind of feel like man I've been wrestling with this for three years I'm like, oh friend, there is freedom for this. You know we don't have to be and maybe it's just re-evaluating once a year. But I think there's an element of especially in Christian dumb that it feels like if you're on social media there should be like this massive angst. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I mean I understand, but I don't think. I don't think that's what God's call us to do. Is angst, he calls us to not be at peace with things, and so I don't know. That's maybe where I land.
Speaker 2:And then also I would say there's a lot of different questions for if you are a consumer of social media versus creator of social media, and my consumption rules are different than my creation rules and how I think about that. And so what causes me anxiety often is consumption, not creation. So because real quick I learned oh, don't post about bestselling books, laura. You know, like that's weird, you can't handle that. That was a creation issue.
Speaker 2:But, like I knew, consumption on that other side you know that's where and that's what I hear most people struggling with is like hey, it's political and that stresses me out, or I don't like seeing that success of other women. You know that makes me jealous and I mean I'm human, I get that that's hard for me to deal with. So I think that there's and we don't probably have time to get into both, but there are different hats to put on as you're evaluating, and for me personally, I actually don't consume much socially, I create. But consumption, I mean I probably follow like 500 people and like 300 are muted. Like people don't. I mean I just I was a mute, I went nut to mute and I was like I'm only gonna follow, praise God, yeah, and it has really that's part of my threshold level and I got 100 people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, freeze up capacity for you to be on that space, because that's called you that space.
Speaker 2:Yes yep.
Speaker 1:My next question is have there been any rhythms or boundaries God's led you to do with social media that have been helpful in your own life? You kind of just spoke to a few. Are there any other ones that come to mind?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So last summer, unexpectedly, I took three months off and most of it was 15. I'm a pretty big media tour for one of my books and it was supposed to be like two weeks and then it literally turned into the whole summer and that was a point for me and I'm glad I had that experience, because I had done 12 years on social media, never stopping, and it was like you know, and I would have said, oh, I have a heart tolerance, so I take the weekends off, la, la, la la. But it was really good, I think, for me to experience a summer with my kids without even the need to create. I mean, I took a really good step from all my work and so I don't know that I'll do that every year, but I want to take a month off every year where I'm just in a be in the summer. It's where I'm with my kids and I can be fully invested from the consuming and the creating. So that's a rhythm I worked in after that and then I just don't post on weekends. It's just like a heavy rule that I'm like okay, I just want to be available and present. I want to Sabbath on Sundays and I don't want to be on the platform, especially two days out of every week.
Speaker 2:And then, lastly, I would say, is that one of the reasons I feel like I'm also able to stay on is that I feel a very low pressure to create.
Speaker 2:I want to create, I do create. It's an overflow of worship for me. It's something that I want to do, but I don't hold the way that at Riz and Motherhood, we run our social media, which is five days a week. It's heavily thought out, it's heavily curated, it's been in the works for months, but on my personal platform it's really just to have fun, to share what I'm working on and keeping for me personally and this is kind of a know-thyself, because some people will need more structure. But because I am such a naturally structured person, I've actually chosen to say, okay, if I have something to share, great, and if I don't, okay, and I'm not gonna share on weekends, no matter what, even if I have something on something, and that it's kind of a loose rule, but I'm a very highly disciplined person. So by almost taking away my natural bent, it has helped me have a more open hand with it.
Speaker 1:Cool. I love that Kind of then segue into you creating. God has gifted you immensely in writing poetry. Wow, I love all of it. I'm constantly sharing it. Can you tell us how you got into writing poetry? What do you love about it? And, as someone who longs to write more and is inspired by your specific style of writing to do so, what does your writing process look like? Maybe, for, like your, it's probably a different process for your shorter posts and poems to, obviously, your books, but do you do things come to mind randomly and you jot them down? Is there carved out time to write for that deep work or is it a mixture? Tell us all the things. Oh, I love it. I'm wondering all of the things I love this, I love this.
Speaker 2:Okay, so getting into poetry was an accident. I started writing like this like three years ago and I have always been a little bit more emotive, a little bit more poetic feels like a strong word to even use in the past, but like I was a little bit more fluffy. I hate that word but compared to a lot of my peers who I'm in the industry with, you know, I can be a little bit just. Yeah, we're both moving here but no one can see us, I know, but you know like.
Speaker 2:I know. So yeah, cute Flowering, so I don't know. So I always kind of had I'm motive is the best where I can think of and descriptive, and I am I think I was funny.
Speaker 1:I would say you're funny too. I don't know, I don't know PS.
Speaker 2:Okay, you're welcome. So I had that and I felt like some of the work that I was doing was much more nonfiction. And we're writing essays, we're writing arguments and I'm packing the theology. Yeah, it's a great skill to have, it's a thing that, like I'm thankful I could do. But I will tell you, when I write like that, it is like writer's block to no end. It's hard and glorious work. So I was just wanting to have fun, I wanted to process some emotions, and I think I turned on some super emo, moody music and I just started writing and I was like I feel this and it just it became this active worship for me that no article ever has done for me, and so that's why I got into it.
Speaker 2:And then I started posting it, which was very scary. I mean, I have been a public writer for a long time but posting it was terrifying because I didn't know if people would think it was good. I mean, at the end of the day, I've heard of it and it pretty quickly. It was received Not like immediately, but I started realizing this is what people are commenting on, they're sharing this more. Yeah, they're resonating.
Speaker 2:I like to think that I cannot I cannot fix someone's problem, but I can name the pinpoint, I can give words to what hurts and what aches. And as I started to learn that, even speaking back to the universal themes of grief that I was kind of talking about, as I started to kind of learn how to write those things, I think by sharing specific aspects of my story that's still very vague, I think, but also weirdly specific People were like entering in and saying, oh, this has helped me in this way and I just saw the word using it. I mean, I just I feel like I've just seen him use it and so I've been so grateful to. Just I think that has encouraged me and spurred me on in other writing where maybe that hasn't been the case. So it's nice. It's always nice when that happens. That's always. And then in terms of just how it works, so I use an app. It's a new app for me. I used to use Evernote, but now I use Notion You're in Notion Okay.
Speaker 2:It's like a to-do list, like a modern looking to-do list. It's electronic and I have okay, here we go. So I have tons of drafts of phrases, fragments, mostly entry lines. You know like, just like I am thinking about this or whatever. Then I have a document called Words I Love, and on that document it's just words that I think are interesting or cool, they have taste to them and I can just wrap them in no particular order. I literally type them up whenever, on my phone, whenever I read a book or like an interesting turn of phrase, read a lot of work.
Speaker 2:I read widely, but everything is kind of a mentor text for me, and in writer speak that just means that you can learn from anything you're reading, from. You know you read it, and with not just to learn about what they're writing about, but to learn about how they are writing, to understand the correct, and so I read a lot and I note those things. It makes me a slower reader, but I think I'll just go in. It's like my grab bag, you know like, okay, I don't want to use the word purple, well, what's another word for purple? And I can go into my you know whatever. So that those two things have really helped me.
Speaker 2:And then I just recently instigated I'm going to write one hour a day, cool, and I'm just like that's yeah, I'm big on deep work and just turn off all the alerts, all the stuff and give it one hour, because it's such a muscle, you know, like any, and I write for my job. I'm writing tons, right, I produce so much content. Sometimes I'm like, how am I producing so much content and I have nothing to put on social media, you know? Yeah, that being said, I writing in this poetic way is like it's like sucking your heart out a little bit every single day and you almost have to get like used to that feeling and like be willing to enter in, because you know the best. In my opinion, if you want to move someone, if you want to cause tears, then there must be tears in the writer to cause tears in the movie.
Speaker 1:That's good yeah.
Speaker 2:So I have to feel it, I have to engage in it. And there was. I was getting away from it for a few months because of other projects and I realized, oh, I feel out of practice, I feel like I don't want to, I'm scared to go back to that poetic place because I knew it would cost me something and it would hurt a little and I mean those words in the lightest sense of the words. But, and so I was like, okay, we're just gonna do one hour a day. It's like workout, you know, like you kind of like it's hard to get into but you're always glad you did. So I'm getting back into that, I think, to help use the muscle and to produce work, and because I deeply, deeply believe that I connect with God through it and I want that connection with him. And so I missed that connection over these past couple of months as I was working on book projects yeah, or I miss you and I realized because I wasn't writing poetry. So Cool.
Speaker 1:What Miranda question that just came in mind. What well can you share about the books that you're working on? Are they public knowledge? Okay, yeah, I want to hear about. What books are you reading on, are you?
Speaker 2:working on. It's kind of ridiculous right now. It's so we have two books coming out with Riz and Motherhood in October of this year Wow, the first one's called God's Home, mom, yeah. And then the second one's actually like a workbook Bible study companion, cool. They'll come out together. And then we have another Riz and Mother book coming out in March of 25 called Cool Wow, yeah, I'm trying to think of what's called. It's called Every Moment Matters. There we go, a million a million moments back. This is fun. This is amazing. It's something like a million a million tiny moments.
Speaker 2:It's something like that People will well find it out.
Speaker 1:We'll put it in the show notes. Gracious me that's terrible.
Speaker 2:You're writing a trillion things right now.
Speaker 1:I mean you got a lot going on, so it's okay that you're really yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a lot, so true. And then I have a kid's book coming out. I have one kid's book coming out March of 25. And then another kid's book A World Wonder.
Speaker 1:A World Wonder, oh, my goodness, do you? When you're writing each of those books, is it like okay, so you're doing an hour of writing poetry right now, or is it the hour, so the hour's just poetry? And then is it like you're trying to carve out some time each day or a couple times a week to be chipping away at your books, or what's that like.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean, one of the reasons I got off from writing poetry is I was super deep in writing gospel and so I just there is an element, I think, where I'm like, okay, this is the style of writing I have to do, and so I just have to yeah, it's hard to like jump Ship to the other things. Yeah, I felt like my brain couldn't work in both directions. And a gospel, mom you know, is nonfiction. It's kind of this manifesto of motherhood that we're writing, and so it was. It's so different than poetry and so I kind of that's where the break came from.
Speaker 2:And now it's this hour of day of poetry. And then I am still working on the March book that's coming out with Risen Motherhood and that like, yeah, I like to do in like four hour chunks of deep work where I'll just do three to four hours but I'd like to dive in. You know, I think writing poetry can be a little more of a helicopter, but writing nonfiction is much more of like this is a plane. You know, you got to go up, you need some time to stay up there, and then you got to work on. So, yeah, you have to structure your days. I'm big on time blocking and I'm really big on my kids are gone seven hours a day. They're in public schools, so anybody who thinks I'm doing a lot, please remember that my kids are gone and so that helps. It's like I'm like hour one. I'm doing this and I mean I am just one thing to the next.
Speaker 1:I love that, do you when you're writing poetry and sharing poetry? Just personal question. I'm wondering do you like a few different things written and then, like you're like, oh, I think I'll share this one today and you've sat in it for a little bit, or did you just write that one yesterday and then you post it? Or is it different every time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's different every time, because I will go through seasons where I'm really writing a lot and I'm feeling content about a lot of them, where I'm like, okay, these are ready to publish and I'm hoping that with this one hour a day practice that I'm doing, that, I will get better. But right now I will say it's slower, it's clunkier, it's just like anything where I will start to think in poetry when I'm writing it a lot.
Speaker 2:And I'll be at church and I'll hear a little line, like type it into my phone, or listening to a song, and I'm thinking, and there's another line and so I feel like I'll be driving the car. I see poetry everywhere. When I'm in that mindset and I would tell you most honestly, the time this recording, I'm like, oh, I'm not there yet, cause I just came out writing a big book and so I've got to rework that in. But I think once that comes, then, yes, do I have a lot? I will. Right now I'm at the bottom of the barrel. You know what? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, amazing, okay, that was all. I'm excited. I feel like those are just helpful tips for anyone that's like long straight more, and it just is always interesting. I love hearing about people's processes of how they do anything, but okay, so, going along with your writing, you get me fired up, and we kind of touched about this earlier regarding lies. But whenever you speak a little bit about this in your newsletters or social media spaces, I feel like you and Jen Wilkin, for me personally, have continued to speak boldly and call up women in this, and that is the beauty of aging, the holiness of aging, the reality of aging, kind of.
Speaker 1:You talked about it earlier, but we live in a society that worships and obsesses over anti-aging things, staying youthful, et cetera, and I love and I get so freed up, freed up when you remind us what the call is, cause my heart syn tendency wants to go there too, and I'm going to read some words that you wrote in one of your emails that you sent out after your birthday last year. It was 37 things, you know, on your 37th birthday. I loved the whole thing. I forwarded it to multiple friends and most of them I forwarded to. I said number 17 in all caps with like knowing next major morning's like yes, okay. So here's what it said, and correct me if you're like, I didn't write this. This is wrong, okay. So here's what you said. Number 17.
Speaker 1:I know that aging, naturally, is an offense to the world, and that's exactly why I want to do it. I do not want to apologize that I've lived as long as I have. Instead, I want my wrinkles and gray hair to be a beacon to the world that I was made for another one. I want my wrinkles and gray hair to be a beacon to the world that I was made for another one. Oh, my goodness, I just love that paragraph so much. I just love it, okay.
Speaker 1:So my question is what does it look like for you and you kind of spoke to this earlier, but maybe you have some more thoughts about what does it look like for you to continue to fight the temptation of joining in on the endless rat race of trying, in quotes, not to age or keep up with the world standard for beauty? And well, my next question was or has that not been a struggle for you? You kind of shared it above, and then my other thought was I remember you posting something that was helpful too about like it's not wrong that we love beauty, or God has put that in us to love beautiful things. I'll have to share that post in the show notes because I feel like that was really helpful too. Alas, yeah, what does that look like for you? Oh, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the topic of aging is a big one. It's funny, I'm 37, as you mentioned 37 things I know Sorry, yeah, just she's 37.
Speaker 1:No, it's great, great.
Speaker 2:I'm not in the context of why is this woman obsessed with aging? It's like because I am aging. I think it definitely has as I've gotten older. I didn't really think about it a lot until maybe I turned about 35. Then I started feeling like, oh, I knew, we're getting Botox, we're getting lip fillers, they were getting implants. I mean, things were happening and I did not realize, I think, how socially acceptable or maybe even hidden Sometimes it's hidden but how prolific it is, how common it is. I started thinking, well, should I get a nose job? Or look at these forehead furrows, these wrinkles up here? Should I do that? Oh, with that, love my husband. Well, I started doing some warped, thinking a little bit on some of these things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so hard to contain my thoughts, because I believe there is a place for beauty and wanting to look beautiful. I don't plan to dye my hair. I don't currently dye my hair, but I'm also not going to tell you I will never dye my hair, I won't go there. But there are other things that I would, and I would put things on a ladder of like okay, the level of intensity of dyeing your hair, because people will say, well, what's the difference between makeup and a nose job. It's like a lot, actually Quite a lot, yeah. And yet again, someone who has a nose job. I would never, ever say, condemn them for that, because I think they're doing the best, they know how in the time, they are where they are.
Speaker 2:And yet I would want to point anyone who is considering at least trying to stop the look of aging in a significant way to start to think about God's design for humanity and recognizing that culturally it tells you stop looking old, look as young as you can, be as beautiful as you can for as long as you can, because once you don't look beautiful anymore, you are worthless, you are done. And in God's economy he says no, the older you get, hopefully, the more holy you become, the more I sanctify you. The more time you've had walking with me, the more you look like me. And so to me I can see that man looking older, I hope, is only a reflection of how much Jesus has changed my life, and it's not always the case. I think there's an element of like.
Speaker 2:We can also age in a way that doesn't glorify God. You know, not doing any makeup, not doing any. We're not talking about that we're talking about our heart and how horrible would it be if we got to the end of our days and yet we don't look anymore like Jesus. And I even heard a pastor recently. He was talking about parenting and he's like we're called to have our children look like me as I follow Christ, like Paul talks about, and it's like yes, yes, yes, but also as the parent, how much are we making sure that we look like Christ?
Speaker 1:How much?
Speaker 2:are we focused on not just our children following us, but that we are becoming in that image of Jesus. And so I think that that is the thing I wrestle through, or I want to consider is I think there's a defiance that we can offer to the world as we age naturally and say, okay, I'm going to trust God with his plan in a fallen world, that this world isn't my home and that ultimately he's coming for me and he's going to give me the most global body in the world. And I and I wait, and I will wait patiently. I will wait until he decides it is time, and until now I can be content because he declares me beautiful. He declared me going to the garden.
Speaker 2:Genesis three talks about that. I'm sorry, this is one and two. Genesis three is the fault, but that's one and two, and so that's where I guess I want to push a little on women who want to do big things because they don't. They aren't satisfied and they don't love what they look like, and I don't think we have to love every part of our bodies. I think part of being able to age well is also being able to say that is broken.
Speaker 2:That doesn't work. That's really not that beautiful. Because I think, if we're, am I supposed to love myself? You like, no, I don't think that I'm all you know to be like, wow, that is gorgeous. I don't think that's what we're called to. We and that's the one of the beauties of the gospel is we can admit oh Lord, like I don't love that. Yeah, you know, I trust that my worst not found in that. I trust that my values not in that. I trust that I can still be confident because I have you, and so that's the mindset that I want to encourage, I think, more and more women to have, and probably one of the reasons why I feel called to age naturally is because I think that it is like like that quote you read it's a beacon to the world that this world is not my home and that I don't put my hope in it.
Speaker 1:And I don't know about you, but I feel like, well, even like you said, when you're you're maybe the people around you were starting to get talk about plastic surgery or starting to get more, and I feel like it's just getting to younger and younger ages that it's happening and people around me have it or are talking about it, and I just last year was just like really wrestling through. There's some people around me that were that get Botox and and it's one of those things I can't remember what piece of scripture the Lord brought me to that basically, like is like you don't notice it until you're surrounded by it and then you like notice it in you. I can't think of it, but basically I didn't notice my like forehead until, like, the people around me are talking about it so much I'm like, oh, I hadn't even like, I didn't even thought about that and I had like I'm I and now I was seeing it all the time as they keep talking about so it's like what I was surrounded by, and then I was becoming frustrated with myself that then I was like, oh, my gosh, yeah, look at my deep 11s forming my. My mom has them, I'm going to have them. Like, it's not a secret Like and I was like mom, you chose the right hairstyle, though I don't know if you have my mom, but she has like bags that go over.
Speaker 1:I was like you know what I thought you were doing there, but like I'm like okay, and one of the things to I was sifting through with just one of my like mentors and friends, who's she's in her 40s and and I was. I remember when she was kind of walking through like starting to just kind of wrestle through aging, for we've been friends for gosh almost like eight, eight years now. And I remember when she, when she was wrestling that I'm like 21 or something Like and I'm and I remember thinking I don't, I don't foresee me like wrestling through that. Like I remember thinking that how ignorant, how ignorant with all things when we're like we think we know right.
Speaker 1:And so literally last year, I just like come to her and I'm like, and I'm now wrestling with like gosh, I'm now looking for. There was like a couple months span where I am just, I am looking for a natural, a natural thing. Again, that's okay if you do that, this isn't knocking, this is just me pressing through what the Lord is convicting me on. But I'm looking for like okay, so I'm not going to do Botox, but maybe if I find a natural thing, then like, then, like it's okay, and the Lord, just for me, the Lord, just I remember some speaking like gently to me, like one seemingly small compromise will just lead to the next one and like you reaching for this, like this, will just lead to despair, because you're you're not going to stop it and why are you trying to stop it? And but it was sweet because it was humbling, because it was like, wow, I again, it's easy for me at 21 in college, and that like, oh, I'm not going to like struggle with that. Well, yeah, you haven't had three babies and you're like I haven't walked through anything where you have any wrinkles on your face, like of course, you don't think you're going to struggle with that. Like it's easy to say that outside of it and so it was sweet to it was hard because it was like, wow, I didn't even notice it. Now everyone's talking about it. Now that's all I'm thinking about.
Speaker 1:But then trying to fight that, okay, god, no, because then it just became a spiral of what's next. And then ultimately it reminds me in Timothy Keller's like freedom of self-forgetfulness. Like when I walk by the mirror, I want to be like so neutral, like I want to be grateful that God gave me an able body and that that that I'm here and I'm breathing. But I don't want to walk by and be like, oh, that totally sucks. Like you said, you can still we don't have to praise our cellulite and that my, my, you know everything after having a baby and all that. But like I want to be, I don't want to think so much about myself.
Speaker 1:I was looking at my deep 11s. Yeah, I was thinking about them, which was exhausting, because then I was discouraged, because guess what I am? My body is changing, is the king? And when I'm so focused on myself per all of life, it just leads to despair every single time, because my eyes aren't, like you're saying, hoping in eternity and my glorified body someday. But I loved, yeah, your quote. That where a beacon of light showing people that we're not made for this world, we're made for another one. And I feel like I'm just gonna like that's gonna be so encouraging in the years to come and, god willing, to other women as we hopefully like stand firm that it's not that we're not wrestling, it's not that we're like we're so holy and like step that's in the Lord's, we're not even thinking about no, like we're wrestling, but we're saying no, god, god is our hope and we're gonna keep fighting these lies and we're gonna keep encouraging the women behind us and beside us to do the same, and so we can all be encouraging each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think so much. What comes back to us? What is your life witness to? Yeah, like just your near existence. There's a testimony, a living argument that you are making every single day about what you're looking for and who you represent and what you believe.
Speaker 2:And I think that we think, or I thought there was a time where I was like okay, I think if I do this thing and it was kind of a more significant thing, then I'd be satisfied, I'd like my body, I'd feel more confident in whatever.
Speaker 2:And the reality is that's not true at all. You see, those people who've gotten like too much because they're beautiful at one point and then they take it too far. And I think that that's kind of the question I think we have to start asking is, like, as I do these things, the level of permanence that I take, the level of risk I'm willing to undertake, the level of money I'm willing to spend, the amount of time I'm spending on looking beautiful what does that send to the world? What message is that? Or, if I'm having to hide this from my daughter, I don't want her to know what kind of message does that send If I'm not really share it publicly on social media really something I should be engaging in, and so those are questions. Again, I think it's a matter of conscience, but I think, at the end of the day, those are some of the big, essential questions we have to ask.
Speaker 1:What encouragement or truth do you have? You kind of just said something, but for any women listening today that they do find themselves sad about aging, or maybe encouragement for the person that's found themselves trying to do everything in their power to prolong aging is the encouragement the same for both of them? I feel like, again, we could have, with a lot of things we've talked about today, just a podcast on this alone. But yeah, what encouragement do you have for them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think that it's super normal to struggle with this, and so, first of all, you're just not alone. Yeah, I think that there are very few women on the planet. There may be some that don't struggle with this. I think they are out there but the vast majority of us do really struggle, and so this isn't something to keep to yourself. I think often we can struggle in isolation on this topic, or we won't speak in specifics, we just have an animal aura of I'm dissatisfied or, of course, I struggle, ha ha. But to get some good friends around you that believe the same things, that want the same things, I know my friends and I literally like we made a pact. We're like we're not gonna do Botox. Okay, everybody, I love that and it was just I was like, if my close girlfriends, it's a lot easier to go against the grain a little bit and cause I was like, oh no, all my friends are gonna be like so youthful looking and y'all are like super grateful or whatever. It's just hard, totally, yeah.
Speaker 2:You're around that a lot like finding some other people who have maybe a core value that's similar to you. Yeah, and again, I think you can love Jesus and get Botox. Like don't, I hope nobody's through that. I think they're just different. It's a big conscience issue, something you have to work through with the Lord. That's where my conscience lies, and also so having friends around you.
Speaker 2:And then I would just wanna remind that person that God does not require a certain body type or a certain type of nose or certain set of eyebrows or color of hair to love Him and enjoy His creation and to carry out His work. And I think that often we can mix up what priority this should be in our lives because it's such a high priority to the world yeah, it's such a high priority to the water that we are in and that our neighbors and I mean could even be to your husband Like there could be husbands out there who are like, hey, these are my expectations, because the world has told them that's what they desire. And yet I think that we have to remember that Jesus wasn't anything to look upon. You know Isaiah talks about that that Jesus didn't have. He wouldn't be like super handsome if he were here today, you know he wouldn't be on the cover of People Magazine or something for his looks, and that has helped me a lot to think that it was essential to the mission of Christ for him to look good, then God would have done that, you know, god would have made sure that he had the looks to go with, and if it wasn't essential for Christ, it's not essential for us.
Speaker 2:So that has been big, I think, for me, and I would just encourage anybody in that to ask where are you prioritizing beauty and looks on your list and how can you just remember the example of Christ as you go about thinking through these things and seeing that it's not essential for you to have, you know, super arched eyebrows and to be a good mom. It's not essential for you to have a thin nose, for you to be a good friend, it's not essential for you to not have cellulite, for you to enjoy the sunset, and so all of those things, I think, are just things we have to remind ourselves and have a better narrative going in our mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so helpful, so encouraging. Okay, what is a piece of scripture the Lord is currently using to encourage, exhort or convict you with?
Speaker 2:lately, hmm, okay, so I would say I'm in. I'm reading the Bible through chronologically in the year, in a year right now. So I'm in, like the story. I just got down with the story of Joseph. I think I'm on time for anyone else who's listening. Are you Bible recapping it?
Speaker 1:or no. I just A different. Okay, cause I'm on. Are I just finished? Joseph too, and I'm not.
Speaker 2:I'm sure the plans are yeah, oh, okay, oh, then I should check that out, then it would be the same. No, it's just like a free plan. I downloaded it on the internet, okay, amazing. But and Joseph, it was.
Speaker 2:It's funny cause, it struck out to me, a lot of people love to quote Joseph about the what you intended for evil, god meant for good type of thing. And that's a good quote. That's great. But what stuck out to me this time was actually Joseph talks to his brothers and when he kind of reveals his identity in this big, dramatic moment, he says God sent me ahead to prepare a place for you, you know, to preserve a remnant to, to save you from famine.
Speaker 2:And he says it like two times in this, like big reveal. And I remember just like I've never heard of that before that Joseph already knows that what the good was, that God had already had set him up for that, while that Joseph had gone through, God had sent him ahead of time and he's like that's so that I could save you, it's so that I could feed you. Like he's like super stoked about it in this moment and I just thought, man, lord, what have you prepared me for and sent me ahead on, like, are there anything that I'm not seeing that you've sent me? For that I can. I can link arms with someone or be excited about.
Speaker 2:And then also, you know or perhaps what am I in right now that I can't see how you're going to use it, but that, you know, someday I hopefully can look back, even if it's at the gates of heaven, and say, oh man, god sent me ahead to prepare, whether that's for my kids, that's for women online. You know, maybe that's on the topic of aging. I don't really want to be that mouthpiece, but whatever, like, okay, lord, like, let me have a heart that is happy to be a forerunner and that is happy and joyful to go ahead, cause Joseph went alone and he went through so much suffering, he went through so much pain, and yet he's like, oh my God, look, look what the Lord did, you know.
Speaker 2:And so I want to be, like that, and so it's been challenging and convicting to just ask about that for circumstances in my own life.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's so encouraging. I feel like I'm going to think about that yesterday and this week and need to chew on that. Okay, someone is out there, god willing, listening to this and, maybe for the first time, thinking I want to respond to the gospel, I want to know and follow Jesus. What is a tangible next step for them and what advice do you have for them?
Speaker 2:Well, my advice and tangible next step would be just do it. You know, you don't need any special magical tricks, you don't need a special book, you don't need a great speaker, you don't even need this incredible church with a just, solid pastor Like those are good things to have, those are good things to get, but if you want to follow Jesus, just start today. The Bible has ever you need for life and godliness and so you can start reading God's word, you can start living God's word, you can ask the spirit to show you and you're talking to my kids about this all the time that they have the Holy spirit living in them and like that is just such a kind of it's bizarre, right, it's bizarre, let's be honest, but it's also like what a gift. There is no other way out there. That's like this Well, you have supernatural deity living in you and you are a temple and now, anytime you need help, you can ask. Now, anytime you need peace, you can ask.
Speaker 2:I was, like you know, talking to my kids about this and they were just like I mean, I remember I've been talking to them about the Holy spirit for years and years and years and we were just recently talking about this a couple of weeks ago and they were literally looking at me like what can he do? You know? Like what's up? And I'm like you guys, how long have I been telling you that, like, you have the Holy spirit, and if you ask for things that align with God's heart, he's gonna grant them. He wants to give them to you. He is a loving father that is kind and good. And so if you ask, god, bring me peace, god, help me be generous, god, help me be kind, compassionate, give me strength, those are all requests that he loves to answer, because it means he's giving you more of himself.
Speaker 2:And so, if you're a new believer, that is a, not just a toolbox at your disposal. It's like the keys to the kingdom are right inside you and you can access that at any time. And so, yes, get plugged into a great church. Yes, surround yourself with awesome friends, but read the Bible, and God's gonna help you figure it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. That's so encouraging. Okay, I have 7,000 more questions for you, but I'm going to wrap this up. We have some rapid fire questions, keyword rapid keyword fire. Okay, are you ready? I'm ready? Okay, most impactful verse on your life all time, or lately, I'll allow people.
Speaker 2:people don't like the word favorite and most, so it's okay, that's you but I would say, yeah, one of my most impactful verses I have to, of course, caveat this but Philippians 4-8, you know it says finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, commendable, if there's any moral excellence and if there's anything praiseworthy, dwell on these things. And I think that that has been something that I think being a Christian is such a battle of the mind and it's something that is so much played out here, even just neurologically has been through things, and so I think that's been a big verse for me to help focus and discipline my mind on the right thing. So that kind of what goes in is what comes out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that Favorite book right now.
Speaker 2:I am reading being Mortal who? Author. I'll look it up.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Being Mortal. It's about medicine. I don't know. It's something about medicine but being Mortal and it is all about aging and more about the medical system and how we treat those who have aged and geriatric care. But it plays right into just what we're talking about of what does it look like to age well, and it's scientific, but it's very relatable, like I wouldn't say it's like a hard book to read at all.
Speaker 1:Cool, most impactful book all time.
Speaker 2:I don't like that question at all. I just I want hard pass.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can list you like Do you have a favorite book List? Just the ones that come to mind. I feel like you've read a trillion, but like what? Okay, some favorite ones, just some more.
Speaker 2:Some of the many favorites. This is like an inexhaustible yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved A Severe Mercy by Milton Vincent, gilead by Maryanne Robinson. Educated Tara Westover. The reason for God, tim Keller Also. Freedom From Self-Purgitfulness by Tim Keller. Anything but Tim Keller, cs Lewis, anything I mean. Come on, you're not a Chronicle of Narnia, you just cannot be fat.
Speaker 1:I haven't read those yet.
Speaker 2:I know I'm so sorry. I don't know if I can let you release this show.
Speaker 1:I know, I'm so sorry you have I almost held it back, but I wanted to be honest. How old is your oldest child? He is about to turn six, so I need to read it. Is it time?
Speaker 2:Is it time? The line that was in the wardrobe, remember? You have to start with book two. I don't know if you know this. Start with book two. Yes, Okay, Read Aloud. They are the best Read Aloud books Because there's one.
Speaker 1:Something about I feel like I tried to start one. Okay, the Magician's Nephew maybe. Yes, I started that one. I shouldn't start with that one.
Speaker 2:No, you're supposed to start with number two.
Speaker 1:yes, Okay, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:The line that was in the wardrobe and then promise him he can watch the movies afterwards, although my kids were tiny but scared of the movies. I don't know the threshold. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're a little more intense, but please do this as an act of service to the rest of us. Like this is needed, I will.
Speaker 1:I will okay, I will I promise Okay. Favorite song right now I am listening to.
Speaker 2:Orpheus is the song name by Vincent Lima. I just found it randomly on Spotify. It just came up, but it is a great moody poetry song, if you want. Ooh, okay.
Speaker 1:His voice is like really deep.
Speaker 2:I don't know what the dude looks like. There's like a shadow figure of him, so I'm, but the voice is like really deep.
Speaker 1:So I like it. I love that. I'm gonna play that later today. I'm gonna do an hour writing poetry. I'm like I am Laura Whitley. I just like no, okay, favorite song all time.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is another one I don't like. I would say how great they are. Actually I can answer it Love it, Favorite food. So okay, I love Fritos. To listen to Bad Way, I love Fritos. That's amazing. And then I would say Chipotle is like ridiculous answers. But amazing.
Speaker 1:Okay, favorite Bible teacher to listen to.
Speaker 2:I think Jen Jen Wilken.
Speaker 1:Well, that's favorite podcast or podcast.
Speaker 2:Another one.
Speaker 1:Besides, besides, that obvious, obvious, number one Sonia 65.
Speaker 2:Stop, I don't you know, does Huberman lab? I hate answering that way what is that? Wait, what is it? Okay, maddie, you don't need to hear more.
Speaker 1:I'm so sorry, I'm just really sorry. What is it called the Huberman lab?
Speaker 2:Okay, Huberman lab. No, oh, my word, all your listeners are gonna be rolling their eyes right now. Okay, huberman lab. It's a dude's last name. Okay, andrew Huberman. And he I like science, so maybe there is an element there I have to admit. But he is a professor at Stanford that releases research and does all of these interviews with people about the science of everything from dopamine to how much water you're enjoying to sleep at night, and he is, like you know, like is very popular.
Speaker 1:Apparently. I'm living under a rock. So Apparently, you're not on social media it is Okay, I will have to give it a listen. I'm excited, okay, something that many people know about you. My nickname is Yaya. No way.
Speaker 2:And just because my brother, my middle brother, couldn't say my name whenever he was really little because he had a tongue tie, so Laura came out as Yaya and it has stuck around and it's a fun nickname.
Speaker 1:I love that your whole family call you that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, periodically. I mean my brother's not really call me Yaya anymore, but my in-laws are extended family and my parents, yeah, I love that so much.
Speaker 1:Okay, Amazing, Okay. What are you loving right now? Could be literally anything your toaster, a restaurant gardening a candle.
Speaker 2:I'm loving good earth cinnamon tea. Oh, have you ever had that?
Speaker 1:No, I haven't, but I had you had posted about it, but I feel like after I feel like it probably my favorite tea is Bengal spice. Have you had Bengal?
Speaker 2:spice.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so I feel like maybe they're similar, like, so I was like, and I also love it, so that, but I'm going to try yours, I'm going to try yours, and.
Speaker 2:I'll try them. I'm going to try them this way. Okay, bengal spice, and then, if you want to, get crazy.
Speaker 1:Put in a little bit of creamer in it and it's just delicious. Yes, but okay, wait, cinnamon earth, it's good earth.
Speaker 2:Good earth.
Speaker 1:Good earth, cinnamon. Okay, how can our friends listening today be praying for you?
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. You know, I think in this season, prayer for just endurance I think over for the next few things just to professionally that I'm trying to work through with book launches and things and faithfulness of honoring God through those and what the stewardship looks like, that it's for his glory and not my own, and then I would just say for peace. I think we're walking through just some bigger questions in our personal life with our kids and with the things that we're trying to engage in, and so clarity and peace and wisdom, and it feels like those are ever present requests, of course, but I think there are just some specific things on my mind that we would love some answers to and just haven't gotten them yet. And so stressing God in the midst of that and have peace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you're listening, would you just pause for a minute and take a few moments to pray for those things for Laura? We'd so appreciate it. Okay, where can our friends find you? If you wanna be found your website, your newsletters you gotta subscribe to the newsletter people. I'll link it. Okay, I'll let you answer.
Speaker 2:You can pretty much find everything about me at LauraWifflercom. It is links to the Kiblet Lab, to Risen Motherhood, and then, of course, Instagram is the main place that I hang out and that's at LauraWiffler. And then the newsletter, as you mentioned, which you'll find the link to on my website.
Speaker 1:So I love it so much. Okay, anything else we didn't talk about that you wanted to touch on.
Speaker 2:I'm feeling a little bit better now. I appreciate it. Yeah, we covered the gamut. This was fun.
Speaker 1:This was so much fun. Laura, thanks for being here, thanks for, yeah, just leading the way. When I think of you, I just think you're just leading the way for the women beside you, in front of you and behind you, and so I'm just so grateful for your life and your work and just to get to watch you pursue the Lord and be impacted by it. So, thank you for joining us for over an hour and sharing all the things and, yeah, thank you, you bet, thanks for having me. How amazing is Laura Wiffler? Oh, my goodness, she left us with so many, so so many nuggets of gold. Seriously, can't encourage you enough to go follow her on Instagram and subscribe to her newsletter Again. God's made her humble and honest and wise and just authentic, and getting to follow her in those spaces has been such a gift to my own life and my own walk with the Lord. So, friends, her new kid's book that she talked about is officially out world, I wonder. I linked it in the show notes. Go order it now. Also, to whom it may concern.
Speaker 1:Since this episode was recorded, which was over a month ago now, zian and I have started to listen to the Chronicles of Narnia, a line which in the wardrobe audiobooks slash reading it together, and he and I are loving it. So we did listen to Laura's advice and we started that and we're over halfway through. He's always asking can we listen to the book? Can we do the book? Friends, if you were encouraged by today's episode, would you please take one minute to leave a rating and review? Wherever you listen to your podcast, would you be willing to share it with your friends and family or in your social media spaces? I would so, so appreciate it. As always, I would love to hear about what God is doing in your life. Always feel free to email me at matty at sunning65.com. That's M-A-D-I at sunning65.com. You can also subscribe to my emails in the link on my Instagram or it is also linked in the show notes. Friends, go be bold and love big, and we will see you next time.