Sunny & 65 with Madi Schultz
Join Madi Schultz as she imperfectly pursues Jesus and emphatically encourages you to do the same. Through scripture, conversations, and testimonies— Madi's prayer is that you would walk away from listening to each episode with a greater affection for Jesus + experience the freedom He has for you in deeper ways.
| madi@sunnyand65.com | @madelinschultz_ | @mackandbenj
Sunny & 65 with Madi Schultz
Episode 73: Ben Hamilton
Okay, I just got straight counseled for an hour 40!!! What a gift this conversation was with Ben Hamilton. Ben is a husband, father, and the Director of Care at a church here in Omaha called Citylight. We talk about caring for one another, empathy, listening, their journey with infertility, and so much more. So many golden nuggets of wisdom from Ben in this one!!! I left this conversation changed!!! Enjoy!
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FROM THE EPISODE:
#SA65Bookclub Book of the Month for August: Hudson Taylor: Deep in the Heart of China
The Wounded Healer by Henri J. M. Nouwen
Dr. Dan Siegal - Non verbals Markers of Communication
1) Eye contact
2) Facial Expressions
3) Tone of Voice
4) Posture
5) Gestures and Appropriate Touch
6) Timing of Response
7) Intensity of Response
Reclaiming Hope in Marriage: Infertility (Ben and his wife, Joy's, podcast episode mentioned)
The Bruised Reed by Richard Sibbes
Soul of Shame by Curt Thompson
OTHER FUN THINGS:
MADISCHULTZ.CO
My Favorite Things
Glory Presets
MUST-READ Books
30% Off Lifetime Subsc. to Dwell Bible App
The Daily Grace Co.
Hey friends, welcome to the Sunny in 65 podcast. I'm your host, Maddie Schultz, and today I am joined by Ben Hamilton. He straight counsels us this entire conversation. I cannot wait for you to hear it. I left this episode changed and just walked away with so many new tools and I can't wait for you to listen. Enjoy, Hello, Ben. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Good morning Maddie. It's morning right. Yes, yeah it's morning.
Speaker 1:Good to be here. So Ben and I got connected. I had to remember because, Ben, we've been trying to have this conversation for a long time and this is when God wanted us to have it. So I'm excited to see what he has for it today. But we've been trying for a long time and I can't even remember different things and building switches and all the different things. But I think we got connected through Andrew Rutten I think he gave me your contact.
Speaker 2:I want to say Maybe Sarah.
Speaker 1:Oh, was it Sarah? Was it Sarah? Okay, so you did so. Okay, yeah, so it was Sarah.
Speaker 1:Butenbach, butenbach. Sorry, sarah Butenbach, I always say it wrong. It's Butenbach, okay, okay, so we got connected through, sarah. Thanks for correcting me. Okay, so I also haven't. Fun fact, I haven't gotten to record an episode in person in so long. Most of mine have been virtual for the last probably like five to six months. So this is a sweet change of pace, because virtual is such a gift and it's just nice to sit face toto-face with someone so excited to have you here. We are currently at my church Providence and, yeah, just excited to have Ben here. So, ben, can you tell us the quick gist about yourself?
Speaker 2:Well, I'll do my best. Well, as you said, my name is Ben, In fact that is true, I am two weeks shy of 40. Amazing, that's significant just with my story I think you know I was one of those guys. I have one of those stories. At 25 felt like it would be crazy if I ever lived to see that wow now to be, you know, on the doorstep of 40 is pretty special, and I've always told others and myself that maybe I'll start taking myself seriously when I hit 40. So we'll see if that takes you can follow up with me in a couple of weeks but.
Speaker 2:I've been married to my wife, Joy, for 12 years going on now. We have a five-year-old beautiful boy named Elijah. We call Eli and, yeah, he's just the best. I'm just so thankful I get to be his daddy. I think we'll probably get into this later. He has adopted via embryo adoption actually which we can come back to that if you'd like and we are in the middle of another adoptive process, this time in the country of India.
Speaker 2:So, kind of a different journey that we're on and adventure. Lord willing, in the next year we'll be going on to bring another little one into our home. Wow.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I serve as the director of care which you know, just kind of think pastoral counseling pastoral care is kind of the main function of my role. Just kind of think pastoral counseling pastoral care is kind of the main function of my role, both the doing of it in either the lives of individuals or couples marriages, premarital and then also kind of creating spaces where care can take place.
Speaker 2:So, whether that be just strengthening and making deposits, hopefully in existing spaces already, like city groups, small groups, that kind of sort of thing that we do in the church, or new spaces like those focused on bereavement or recovery or those sorts of things, and then raising up, equipping and walking with people to facilitate those spaces, and so it's kind of the doing of the ministry and then the kind of equipping others to do it.
Speaker 2:Believing that this is the work of pastors in the church is to equip the saints for the work of ministry and care is all of our responsibility, I would say, for one another, and so yeah, so that's a little bit what I do. I'm not from Omaha originally. I'm originally from Tulsa, Oklahoma. That is where I met my wife. She ended up there after college. Then we got married. I got called to ministry, went to Orlando for seminary at Reformed Theological Seminary, went up to Charleston, South Carolina, which is where my in-laws were. My wife is a Carolina girl, oh cool.
Speaker 2:And I see you've got MJ on the computer, she would really appreciate that she's a Tar Heel through and through but went up to Charleston, did a little church planting. That went terribly. Why why? Big question, why, yeah, well, so I went to, I should say I went to assist in some church plants and the first one I went to served kind of as a number two role, kind of crashed and burned literally the day we got there and that, yeah, so there was a change in leadership and I kind of ended up having to ultimately walk that church plant to its death. And yeah, just one of these really bizarre moments I'll never forget. Driving home one day after, just kind of caring for and counseling for multiple members of that core team, and just like Lord, like why me? Like, literally, like why couldn't this happen before we came here? We wouldn't have come.
Speaker 2:You know, but literally the weekend we arrived, this kind of all you know is going down. We realized we stepped onto a ship that was sinking. And the Lord just kind of spoke to my heart. You're a chaplain here to help this thing die, and so you know, as I kind of journey on, within the next year I actually became a hospital chaplain.
Speaker 2:So because I was like well maybe I should just really just go all in to that world. And you know, and I, after taking a few bumps and bruises in church ministry, I was like maybe I'll get out of this for a little while like, maybe I'll get out of this for a little while. I just want to sit on row nine and go do simplified ministry, where it's just being with suffering people and then also learning much about myself. That was probably the richest educational experience I've ever had.
Speaker 1:In the hospital? Yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because it was dual parts. I did a residency which was dual parts the ministry of chaplaincy, but then also this small cohort that I was a part of of pastors and chaplains and we were processing our own story as we went about the work of the ministry and it was deeply introspective. It was almost like kind of going down the rabbit hole, like Alice in Wonderland style of self-awareness and things, but anyways, but it was a great, great gift to me and it was out of that that I developed a burden for pastoral care in the local church setting and began to look for ways in which I could do that and that ultimately landed us here in Omaha at City Light Church. We moved here in the middle of COVID.
Speaker 1:So that was awesome. Okay, oh, that was awesome. Okay, oh, my goodness, do you feel like you've? I mean, that would have been a hard time to come.
Speaker 2:It was a terrible time.
Speaker 1:So do you feel like you've recovered is the wrong word, but like even getting connected to people? That probably took way longer than you had longed for and anticipated. What did that look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, funnily enough, on our drive in, I think we were less than three hours away from Omaha I was driving the truck and I get a call from my pastor and supervisor at City Light, joe, and he's like hey, man, we had our first COVID test positive. You know, on the staff team, everybody's gone into quarantine, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:We're not going to be able to be there to help you move in. So it's like so we get here and like nobody's there. But it was so strange and funny looking back. There happened to be a youth group from, I think, minnesota somewhere that had come down here to do service projects that then found themselves with nothing to do because it was the middle of. Covid yeah, and so they got reassigned to come help us unload our truck Wow.
Speaker 3:Okay, god, that's so sweet, If any of those people end up listening to this podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Very minimal damage was done to our belongings, but, yeah, so we didn't see anybody from the church for like, I think, two weeks. So it was kind of bizarre just landing and reorienting ourselves to a new place without you know. So.
Speaker 1:We're going anywhere, even getting to know the place it feels like. Are you liking it now? Are you an Omaha fan? Are you missing the South?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I'm missing the South right now it's 40 degrees outside y'all and I just you know, but I'd say that's more so my wife's kind of big miss right now than mine. This is very similar to the city I grew up in, Tulsa, Oklahoma. I mean I would call them very much, yeah, close siblings, cousins, in terms of size, culture, just all the aspects of so, but it does stay colder, much colder, for much longer here and that is not kind to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at times so, um, but I love the people and I I yeah, I'm one of those. I think I could, for the most part, live pretty much anywhere love it. I love that I'm just yeah and what does your wife do?
Speaker 1:does she work outside of the home?
Speaker 2:she um. She works very hard inside the home. She's amazing. Yeah, she's a homemaker and takes care of me and our boy, and right now she's probably getting mulled by our seven-month-old golden retriever just constantly.
Speaker 1:I love that. What a gift. She sounds like a gift. She's amazing. That's amazing. And then, cher, we chatted about this before we were recording, but share what your dog's name is.
Speaker 2:Oh, his name is Baker and that is in honor of Baker Mayfield, because I am a yeah, sooner born, sooner bred.
Speaker 1:Did you go? Did you go to Oklahoma or no? No, I didn't Okay, you've just been diehard your whole life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, my father worked for the university as a medical doctor and associate professor and stuff and worked with residents in. Tulsa, and so you know I saw as Oklahoma University was supporting me because you know they were paying my father, who was providing for me. So I just felt, you know.
Speaker 1:Have you passed that on to your son?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, he's a diehard Sooner oh my goodness, has he been to Norman?
Speaker 1:Have you guys gone? We haven't got to go to a game yet we did get to go.
Speaker 2:They came here was it two years ago, in the College World Series. They made it to like the semifinals and we got to go to that game.
Speaker 1:And so that was a big Texas fan and then one of my coaches was she had been at OU before, like as a GA, and she, every day I can still hear them the one that loves Texas. Coach Lee, it's 1025 and OU still sucks. I don't know if that's perfect to have on here, but that's like it's real hatred. Y still suck. I don't know if that's perfect to have in here, but that's like it's real hatred y'all.
Speaker 2:There's some deep reconciliation work that needs to be done. I don't know who's going to do it. I don't want to do it because I'm a hater as well of Texas. Amazing, I'll do horns down all day, but at some point the Lord may reconcile.
Speaker 1:Totally Okay. Tell us about when you came to know and follow Jesus.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Well, I'll try to make this brief and you can ask any questions you'd like.
Speaker 2:I grew up in the church and kind of Southern Baptist Church world and so I had a lot of head knowledge and, I would say, the cultural experience of kind of just being in the church always and at all times, and yet I kind of really lacked the intimacy, the relational aspect of you know it was kind of more cognitive, I would say is how it stayed most of the time. Growing up and I think I've come to see I had a lot of anxiety as a child and then I had some unfortunate things take place in my life that I would label as trauma, that kind of really caused just a rebellious. So both a desire to rebel against kind of everything that was normative at that point in my life, to rebel against kind of everything that was normative at that point in my life, but then also a desire to run toward any form of escape or pleasure that I could find in the world, and so that spanned all throughout my teenage years, you know, to the point of spiraling. I actually I went to military school twice as a teenager, so it's kind of kind of gotten to some rough places at times and things, but still had this cognitive awareness of God somewhere in the background. And it wasn't until and as a young adult, in my early 20s, I joined the military because I kept getting myself into more and more trouble and as we do in the Midwest and other parts of 20s.
Speaker 2:I joined the military because I kept getting myself into more and more trouble and, as we do in the Midwest and other parts of the country, I would try to pick myself up by my bootstraps right, because I knew better, right.
Speaker 2:But yet I couldn't do better and so I joined the military. It was kind of my last-ditch effort to fix myself and it did. It gave me a sense of responsibility and now somebody was paying me to go to college. I'd flunked out of community college, so now I was doing things, I had a little bit of direction in my life, and then I just kind of hit my rock bottom. I had a health crisis, massive relational loss and things that kind of just. It was this stripping away of everything that I had insulated myself with, and it was at that point that I realized that God was everything I needed and I'd been looking for, and he was so kind, in his mercy to just orchestrate this series of events in a way that only God can do, in a way that I would say is providence. See how many times I can sneak in the word providence while we're here today.
Speaker 2:But, you know, just connecting me with old folks who had pursued me, you know, a decade prior and just right at the nick of time, and who planted seeds and then I ended up deploying over to the Middle East and you know I would walk around and I was a firefighter in the military and I was living on the flight line and so I had the ability to kind of just stay up all night, because that's when most of our emergencies would happen, and so I would sleep during the day, stay up all night, and I would just kind of walk around during the course of my time over here in the desert.
Speaker 2:This was very biblical and just kind of just cry out to God, like God, how did I get here? My life is in shambles. I have no sense of purpose, direction. I don't know what I'm going to do. I've got just the most epic load of baggage I think that I've ever imagined that I could have and I prayed three prayers. I don't know where they came from, they just kind of just, but they came out and it was God, would you break me, keep me uncomfortable and use me? Would you break me, keep me uncomfortable and use me and that changed everything, because unfortunately he answered the call.
Speaker 2:And I say that just very jokingly, but as we get into more of my story, it'll make sense why I say that, because he did break me. I came back and went back to church for the first time in years and I heard the gospel, with ears to hear, for the first time ever.
Speaker 2:And just that Ezekiel image of the heart of stone being removed and replaced with the heart of flesh and a desire to walk in his ways, and that was tangible for me that night in February in 2009. And so I just never looked back and began kind of trying to make sense. Now I was like, but I still got all this baggage. But, if you remember, I prayed, break me, keep me uncomfortable, use me, and I immediately got to serve in a ministry called Young Life at the high school that I actually was kicked out of, and so that was kind of cool to go back in the halls and some of the still same administrative staff was there and they were like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Vince here, code, red code, red Vince here, but just pursuing high school kids and kind of trying to redeem, make meaning of my story early on, and it just, you know it, never looked back from there. I just I fell in love with Jesus and definitely at that point just hated my sin, right that kind of that. And it's been a journey ever since then of like following Jesus, trying to, you know, kill sin and you know all those sorts of things.
Speaker 1:So yeah, wow, praise the Lord, it's sweet. I think it's sweet that when you just never know anyone's story and with you, like, obviously I didn't know your story and I still don't know large parts of your story, but it's like wow to hear about God bringing people from death to life just doesn't get old. And, yeah, I'm sure your story, and will continue to be today, will be such an encouragement to someone out there listening that maybe feels like I simply have so much baggage, like I'm discouraged, I don't have direction, and just the encouragement that, yeah, you surrendered to the Lord and he hasn't stopped using your life ever since. So that's super encouraging and kind of segwaying into. Would you be willing to tell us about a season of suffering and how you saw the Lord show up in it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think, yeah, going back to those three prayers in the desert. So while I was deployed I started having kind of bizarre health issues. They started out, really kind of GIs related, and didn't make much of it. You know, I'm deployed, stressed out, stuff is happening, eating terrible food. Get back to the States. It doesn't resolve. I kind of continue to have problems, start having trips in and out of the hospital and really just my health continues to spiral and spiral. I lose to the tune of 60 pounds, so I shrink down 5'10". I shrink down to, you know, 125 pounds and this is over the course of a few years. But to kind of sum up, what ended up happening in my body apparently is, through environmental exposures, the stress of everything that was happening, what I was doing, my body just kind of turned on itself and.
Speaker 2:I developed autoimmune disease issues and so like if you've heard of Crohn's or ulcerative colitis disease, these inflammatory bowel conditions and then kind of associated arthritis, chronic fatigue. This was kind of a chain reaction what happened. But for me it seemed to kind of all start with that inflammatory bowel disease. So it took five years to get that correctly diagnosed. So I just kind of for five years, just um, I mean I it was just miserable.
Speaker 2:I just wasted away essentially I'm sorry, and you know it was early on in this that I met my wife. We got married, I had this call to ministry, we went to seminary, we moved to Orlando in the fall of 2013. And we knew my health was weird, like there were some issues. I'd also been diagnosed with celiac disease and we were like, well, that's pretty easy to maintain, let's keep going. We moved to Florida with just hearts full of hopes and dreams. I'm going to study theology and get prepared to lead a church, to preach, to pastor a church, and we're going to do it in sunny Florida, you know, an hour away from the beach and 30 minutes away from Disney World, and like this is going to be like the sweetest season of our life and marriage together.
Speaker 2:You know it's just me and my wife no kids.
Speaker 2:And it was just hellacious. I mean, in many, many ways it's. We moved there and all of a sudden the bottom drops out and I go months on end where I'm bedridden, can't get off the couch, out of the bed, wasting away. Emotional health tanking with it as well. It's kind of, you know, when you suffer and you lose control of your body in that way and you feel like your body literally is trying to kill you, you know it can raise a lot of anxiety, certainly depression things, and so that became our world and you know our marriage turned into, you know, very few moments of enjoying all that goodness and the sun there in Florida and my wife standing by my side in the bed wiping tears from my eyes.
Speaker 2:It was like just kind of how things developed. And so it was. You know I often joke that my seminary training was more of a seminary of suffering than like actual seminary. I, you know, I somehow graduated. I still don't know how. You know it took me five years, but the bulk of what I felt like I learned or experienced and I'm still learning from was through walking with suffering and so, yeah, so many dark nights of the soul, learning how to lament, you know, finding a home in the Psalms. You know finding kinship and reading biographies of saints who had gone before. You know who the Lord still used to do great things, but yet they had, you know, this brokenness in their body that was obvious in terms of, you know, chronic illness or things, or torment and stuff, and so you know, yeah, it was it was, and, and so that season hasn't ended.
Speaker 2:I mean this is, you know, barring a miraculous intervention, this is the rest of my life, and so I still am kind of on somewhat of a roller coaster that my health can change on a dime and and we kind of have to reassess, readjust. But he has been so gracious to restore so much health to me. I've gained all the way back and then some you know and we found medications, therapies that worked and you know I'm functional again. I'm working right, you know, I'm supporting my family.
Speaker 2:That was a huge question for a while, and so yeah it's.
Speaker 1:How do you feel on a day-to-day basis, or does that change? Is it like fatigue and pain?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you said it. Yeah, so yeah, with chronic fatigue and kind of the arthritic issues. It's a daily struggle in terms of energy and just kind of the arthritic issues. It's a daily struggle in terms of energy and just kind of widespread, with some localized like intense pain. My gut does pretty well. I mean, I still have issues here and there, but I kind of learned how to adjust my life and what works and what I need to stay away from. And you know, try to be mindful of my plate.
Speaker 2:I'll both literally and then you know, and then, metaphorically in terms of like balance of life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you? What does that look like? As you're a pastor, I feel like that's one of the hardest roles period, that's the end of the sentence, and then to have to try to be balancing your plate with chronic illness. What's that? Has that been hard? Or are there times when you're like I got to shut it down right here and rest?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there are those times still and thankfully I found myself in a place and in a position where I am afforded a lot of grace by leadership of the church and understanding. I didn't hide that when, I came here. I think they kind of knew for the this point in my life has kind of shaped and really I think just suits me and my body and this season of life that I'm in you know, much better and so.
Speaker 2:but you know it's just been one of those things over the years that it's been a learning kind of some trial and error and kind of trying to find out. God, what are you doing in all this and what does that mean for me? And how do I reconcile these desires of the heart but yet, when the body doesn't seem to be? Keeping up keeping up, you know. And so, yeah, he's been gracious to lead me into a place of doing pastoral care, because it is all about slowing down, I mean.
Speaker 2:so I'm very thankful and it's you know, it's a strange gift to be able to steward this body in that way. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I love how you said, speaking back to your seminary, that you essentially said something along the lines of that like your suffering was the best teacher in that time, that you learned way more from that best teacher in that time, that you learned way more from that. And, innately, as humans we are, as you know, we shy away from suffering. We're like no, anything did not feel uncomfortable, anything did not feel discomfort from even just our day to day, you know, and so I love the three things that you prayed. Can you repeat those one more time, the three things that you prayed in the desert?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, my dangerous prayer is just.
Speaker 2:God, break me, keep me uncomfortable and use me, and I would say I don't want to come across. I'm mindful there may be people listening who are right in the middle of an acute season of suffering and I don't want to glorify suffering by any means because it is. I mean, it took its toll, you know, on me in that specific season that I was mentioning, but you know it still does and so you know it's easy for me to sit here and talk about, you know, somewhat removed from the acute episode like of suffering, you know in that way. But I would, yeah, I guess I hope that didn't come across, that I was kind of glorifying and saying hey everybody go out there and you know, find some suffering.
Speaker 2:No, it's awesome, right, you know. But because, yeah, because I think there's that tension right of Christians, like we do see as clear in Scripture right, that God is not absent in those seasons by any means. And you know, and thinking of, like the Romans 8, 28, how he works all things together for good and how those things can be purifying, revealing, you know even redemptive seasons Even redemptive seasons.
Speaker 2:but it creates this dissonance because it also feels like misery and hell and like everything is crumbling, and so it's kind of just trying to live in that place of tension, I think is the honest place, yeah, sorrowful, yet always rejoicing.
Speaker 1:Like he doesn't negate the deep sorrow of this broken world. Yet we know that our hope is not here and oftentimes it's the deep suffering that turns our eyes to eternity in a way that he hadn't before, that we hadn't turned our eyes to him before. But scary things to pray still, but like such sweet things to pray of, like, like you were saying, he, there was a stripping going on and like a pruning and a breaking, and it's through a crucifixion, as we see in jesus, where he brings new life. And you are who you are because of all those things, and he's used you in deep ways and some of the other things we're going to talk about empathy and you being the care director, I would like it's just even sweet to be sitting here with you and like seeing and like feeling your love for the Lord. That sounds like an odd thing to say, but like getting to experience, even when you walked in, just like your care and humility, and like the Lord didn't leave you in many, many seasons unchanged, like he's been changing you to this point to then use him for his glory, which is just like already sweet, and I've only known you for 34 minutes but, yeah, I don't think you sounded like you were glorifying suffering at all, but the reality is, is that that's what he uses to change us? And so it's like this tension of, yeah, not like praying bold prayers but not glorifying suffering, but like that middle ground of oh Lord, actually strip me of everything that this world is making me love it more, strip me of the things that I'm just like clinging so tightly to, so that I actually can experience the fullness, the flourishing, the abundance of life in you alone. That like I'm only going to experience there, not anywhere else, but doesn't negate the absolute pain that comes with this, comes with it, but he has promised that he won't leave us or forsake us. That's the hope, amen, okay, so God has made you passionate about caring well for one another in the church.
Speaker 1:Going along with your director of care at your church, you kind of spoke a little bit of what that looks like. But why do you think that he's made you passionate about caring well for one another in the church? Why is that so important? Also, I have to say I'm impressed Ben doesn't have any notes in front of him. I feel like most people, 99% of the people that come on the podcast. I feel like they wrote out their notes before or whatever, and so I'm always amazed by the people that don't. Alas, that is Ben. Keep going, ben.
Speaker 2:I feel a little pressure now.
Speaker 1:Now everyone knows.
Speaker 2:No, I can cut out the long pauses. So why is it important?
Speaker 1:Well, I yeah. Why are you passionate about it?
Speaker 2:Well, because God is, you know, and I think this. So, just starting with the theology of care, why does God take on a body and come identify with us as people and windows into even the emotional life of Jesus, as he sees and has compassion on those who are suffering, and like sheep without a shepherd, and all these sorts of things, and so we care about it and we want it to become our hearts, because it is God's heart. And then there's, of course, there's, you know, imperatives throughout Scripture. You know, bear one another's burdens, you know weep with those who weep, you know, like you know. So there's also, you know, kind of these biblical commands as well, and so, but it matters to me, I think, it's pretty clear probably now from my story, because I've been one in great need and it's like.
Speaker 2:So Henry Nowen famously wrote the book the Wounded Healer and you get this kind of image of one who you know him or herself has been wounded. One who you know him or herself has been wounded and yet out of those wounds and experiencing a measure of healing in this life through Jesus, now moves into this world, into the spaces of brokenness and pain and sorrow and suffering, as this kind of wounded healer, embodying ultimately the life and ministry of Jesus, because that's who he was, right, he is the wounded healer. And so, yeah, my story has just kind of put me in this place of and some of it I'm kind of coming to learn. I'm in therapy right now. I'm kind of coming to learn. Just you know how much I kind of analyze and introspective kind of tendencies I have and things, and so some of this may be just my wiring right, that I've chosen to think deeply about this and how this is shaping and forming me as I've gone through these seasons.
Speaker 2:And I don't want to take that for granted because I know that is now as one sitting on the opposite side from people going through these things I know that is a difficult task at times to slow down and to pay attention to what's happening and how we're being shaped and formed in the midst of it.
Speaker 2:But that's certainly what it's done for me is it's um? It has made me a person who is slower um in in many, many ways, who has felt the warmth, light and hope of being seen and known um in the places of my deepest pain and shame. And when you have that experience, it's like how can you not want that for others? I just don't, you know, and so it's just, and so this is the path that he's put me on, and so this is the path that he's put me on. And then it becomes one of those things that just gets affirmed over and over as God just continues to put people in your path, and I don't know if he was putting more people in my path or I just had eyes to see them, that's good.
Speaker 2:But I was seeing them and I was reminded through, you know, the healing work that was still being done in my life of how important it is to care for one another in those hard moments. And so that's I think I hope I answered your question in terms of why it's important and why it matters and how it became a thing.
Speaker 1:That was so helpful. I know that each church, of course, is different. What have you seen in your church, or churches you've been a part of, regarding this? Do you feel as though the church is lacking or thriving in this area of caring well for one another, and what do you feel like are some tangible ways that we can be better at caring for one another in your opinion?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you want me to answer from like a big C church perspective. Just kind of yeah Well, so I would say I'm an idealizer, so I'm naturally going to hold out a high bar, and so therefore I would say the church has much room to grow in this area, and I think that's probably going to be generally accepted most places.
Speaker 2:We realize, especially in the last several years years, with more attention being given to mental health, crisis and things that are going on, you know the rampant forms of anxiety and you know adolescence and youth and everything with the dawn of all the. You know social media and things that are taking place there that we know we've got a big, big hill to climb here in terms of caring well for one another. And so, and you know, my wife and I we have gone through extended seasons of suffering and kind of being a little transient in, like you know, living in Oklahoma, then Florida, then South Carolina, then Nebraska.
Speaker 2:We've had the opportunity to be part of minister in but also visit many, many different churches, and so we've walked into churches on a Sunday morning and physically felt like because we were in a season of sorrow and suffering, like we were not welcome here. That were we to ask, that likely would have not been the response right, but it was just the atmosphere of the culture of the church kind of in our Western Americanized versions and expressions of the church, we do place, I would say, an overemphasis on cultures of celebration and the notion of worship only as happy, happy joy joy, rejoicing, and so we, inadvertently, we create these spaces, in these rooms where it feels like there's no room or space to weep with those who are weeping.
Speaker 2:And even for those who are weeping to be in there. And so we've walked out of services because we felt like call to worship was a big swing and a miss for where we were at.
Speaker 2:And we were hyper, maybe critical, because we were hyper needy in that season of life that I'm thinking of specifically. But anyways, but suffice to say like I think, like across the board, like we could do better here and in terms of like ways that we can do better. And I'll just start with some of those big cultural pieces, because that's the main thing. Right is, do we have a culture of care in the church? And I think that's the most profitable conversation we can start with. You know, as church leaders, as you know, rooms of elders, deacons, pastors, lead teams, whatever have you is like, do we have a culture of care? And because that will start from the top down and so that kind of gets into the weeds of you know, how are we calling people to worship you? Know yeah.
Speaker 2:Like? Are we utilizing all the means of doing that that tradition and scripture has given us? You know, be it. You know the practices of corporate lament you know, psalms of lament.
Speaker 2:You know things like that that really really call our hearts to honest examination and owning where we truly are, because that's the beautiful thing. I've heard Larry Crabb say that God wants to meet you where you are, not where you wish you were or where you pretend to be. And so what practices can we instill as a church? You know, corporately, on a Sunday morning to you know the pastoral prayers that we pray where we pray, you know, for the sick, the hurting, the dejected, those who are in pain, to the ways that we call people to worship and creating space that they. Hey, if you're in here and you're on top of the world, you know like you're welcome.
Speaker 2:And if you are in, you know the depths of the depths. You know, thinking of that language of Psalm 139, you know if I ascend to the highest, if I do there, if I make my bed in the depths, like you were there, so like if you are there, friend, you know, here or there, god is here for you. You are welcome and you know, to the vulnerability of the pastor, you know in the sermon stage and you know those sorts of things.
Speaker 2:So, like the big cultural stuff, the songs that we sing, you know all that kind of stuff Are we accurately representing the tension of the already but not yet that we find ourselves in in every element of our worship together?
Speaker 1:Can you explain what the already not yet is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, it's a. What do you mean by? That. I almost vomited out a big word Eschatological term.
Speaker 1:Define eschatology for us. That's helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're learners here, yeah, so it's just kind of looking forward to the end times, right Study of the end times, and when you look at where we are in redemptive history, so you think of from the dawn of man to the consummation of the kingdom of God, when Christ returns to gather his people, banish sin, darkness, wipe every tear away, new heavens, new earth, all those glorious things that we long for. Where are we at in that kind of arc of redemptive history? And we are between the redemptive act of Jesus, right where Christ has come, where Christ has come. He has come and he has disarmed the powers of this world, and so the penalty of sin and the power of sin have been dealt with. Its ongoing, problematic presence is yet to come, but Christ has come and he has inaugurated his kingdom, he has begun his kingdom work. It is not yet complete, and that is so evident and obvious when we look out into the world and into our own lives.
Speaker 2:Right, we still see the effects of sin and suffering and sorrow and all these sorts of things. And so we're in the middle, we're in the already but the not yet. Christ has already come, but he's not yet. Not yet do we see all things in subjection under his feet? Severs too, would say.
Speaker 2:And so there's a tension point there, and I think the honest Christian life is embodying in everything that we do that reality, and so our worship should express that, because then, no matter who walks in the doors of our church or our city groups, or our spaces or whatever, or around our dinner tables, if we're embodying that reality, that hey, this is where we are, then everyone's welcome. Yeah. And you know so.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 2:So, starting with the culture and then you, and then getting down to the tangible things, I'm loving that I'm seeing more and more churches funnel resources toward care. So, for example, the fact that a city like my church staffs this position, I think, is a really hopeful thing yeah.
Speaker 2:And obviously they're able to do that because of the resources God has given them and blessed them with a steward, and so I'm very, very thankful for any time a church makes this a priority to, whether it's raising up lay leadership, but still resourcing them and saying, hey, we want to value this, so we want to resource you, whether it's training or actual tangible resources or whatever.
Speaker 2:But so you've got the cultural. So you got the cultural, you got the resource. And then just what spaces do we already have within the church and impacting those as well? So, thinking about our small group spaces? Our city group spaces.
Speaker 2:I mean, these really are the front lines for caring for one another well, these are where the one another's of scripture actually get an opportunity to be fulfilled. And you know much more than you know a typical Sunday morning where we're all rushing in and out to get home in front of our TVs, you know, for the football game or whatever. But so, yeah, making sure those are spaces where we're encouraging we're modeling vulnerability.
Speaker 2:We're practicing these graces of empathy and compassion and care. You know, not just doing Bible study. Please study the Bible, Please. You know that's our framework, but then you know that should move us to do this work of actually loving one another as we have been loved. Yeah. And that looks like bearing one another's burdens, which looks like listening to them. Yeah. Right, yeah, and then moving toward them.
Speaker 1:So I heard a quote once and I can't you know those ones that you can't unhear like weekly, like that you're just like always thinking about those ones that you can't unhear like weekly, like that you're just like always thinking about. And it was basically I don't know. Someone did some research and, um, like over 90 percent of people, whoever's in this, this research, um, over 90 percent of people find, like, listening synonymous with love. So you actually may not love them that like, hopefully you do, but if you're listening to someone, to them, that is synonymous. Actually, in our brains we tie those two together. We actually believe that love is listening and I feel like I'm like, oh, that's always convicting and also that was really helpful to read, because it's like, oh, that's an quote, end quote easy way to love someone. And you're a counselor. So you're like, yes, you're like that is what I do.
Speaker 1:One question for you, as someone that counsels people where is I often and I guess this might be just scenario to scenario and asking the Lord to bring you wisdom? But I often feel the tension of finding the balance of sitting, listening and just continually listening and responding with like that's really hard, like I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry and then like, when do you step in with? Not step in, but when do you respond back then with gospel truth and gospel hope, like, because I know even for me there's specific people that I'm like sometimes I just want someone I know like my safe people, that I can text and I'm like I'm really struggling with this today and I know they're going to respond with praying, I'm so sorry and I love you so much.
Speaker 1:Not necessarily a two paragraph truth, which is also really helpful, but it's so funny, even in my own soul sometimes I'm like I just want someone to say I'm sorry, that's hard and I'm praying, but I do know that of course I need the truth spoken back to me at times. I don't know what. Of course I need the truth spoken back to me at times. I don't know. Do you have any tips for like, or is that just the Lord bringing wisdom in each different scenario?
Speaker 2:I think it is, although I do think there may be some helpful principles. Yes, help us. To guide us. That, yeah, that I'm learning myself because, as one who knows loves who knows loves, you know and sees the power of scripture, I want to. I'm going to be honest, I want to fix things in people 100% Same.
Speaker 2:You know, but and I love Eugene Peterson and his memoir talked about you know just kind of some of his shaping and formation as a pastor and has this famous line in there that you know when the light bulb went off for him that people are not problems to be solved, they're mysteries to be known.
Speaker 2:And so just kind of even you know, starting with that, when we race to solutions or advice or the fix or whatever, we are at risk of making that person feel not like a person but like a problem you know to be fixed and solved, and so we need like, as listeners, as those who might move into the life and space of another who is hurting, we need to do this heart work first before we do that, you know, and there almost needs to be like a preparation of our own heart and readiness. And how are we going to posture ourselves toward this person? There's context is important as well. How much rapport do I have with this person? Already. Obviously, words are going to be received differently from different people if you have connection, trust, established there.
Speaker 2:But I think so much of the time we need to examine what am I wanting to offer and why am I wanting to offer this? So sometimes, even in the midst of meeting with somebody, I'll have what I think is some really helpful truth pop up in my head and I've got to do the simultaneous work of continuing to listen, be present to them, because that is foundational to what that person needs in that moment is to feel felt. That's a good definition for empathy. Or experiencing empathy is to feel felt. That's a good definition for empathy, or experiencing empathy is to feel felt.
Speaker 2:But I need to do that while also kind of questioning myself okay, Ben, why are you wanting to say that and offer that? Is it to manage your own anxiety? You know, because you're uncomfortable. Being uncomfortable right now Is it somehow what this person is going through experiencing touches a part of your story and maybe you know you have a need there and so you know. Maybe you know what you're really wanting to say is to yourself. You know in a moment and so, like you kind of take stock and kind of explore, like what are my motivations, what am I, and, and then you know, but ultimately, nobody's gonna bat 1000 here, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, you said it well, and I had a buddy and he may have been quoting the same thing, but he, he would say listening is the first act of love, and so like starting there. So please listen, friends, listen and then listen some more, like that is the first act of love. And so like starting there. So please listen, friends, Listen and then listen some more, Like that is the first act of love. And so don't race to the fix, to the truth, whatever.
Speaker 2:Please hold that, though, because I think ultimately, you know, you might just need to get to a place where you say you know, Maddie, what you're going through sounds really, really difficult, and I want you to know I'm here and I'm not going anywhere, Right, and that's powerful. To model that that, hey, I'm here, I'm feeling what you feel as much as I can in this body, yeah, and I am not going anywhere. So I'm staying present with you. But I wonder, would it be helpful, Do you think it would be helpful for you in this moment if I just continue to listen, or are you wanting to be curious about what does God's word say, or things?
Speaker 2:you know and give them, give them permission to say yeah, I think, I think, I do want to know or, um, you know, no, I don't think I'm ready, like I don't think I'm in a place to receive, and if somebody is in a state of you know, um, uh, trauma or you know something like that, where they're pretty rattled Like they're not in a place to receive, Like you know. Most of the time, of course, the spirit can intervene. You could pray, and you know they can you know.
Speaker 2:But most of the time this is what we would say is just listen, listen some more. Hold on to that truth, explore what is your motivation for wanting to do this. Am I trying to manage my own discomfort, anxiety?
Speaker 2:you know, is this loving to this person? Is this something I should offer now, or could I you know you know offer it later? And then can I ask permission somehow to give them an element of control? You know, you know, to uh, to say yeah, I. I think I would love to hear some encouragement right now, you know, and we, we do this all the time when we have a story that's similar to people, it's like oh, maddie I know exactly what you're going through and like, but we don't right like we can get close sometimes, yeah, but we don't ultimately know.
Speaker 1:And and then we share that story in the moment and they're like this doesn't help, I'm just trying to be heard, and we move it to our own story.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Out of trying to connect and thinking we're helpful, but we don't have the intention to hurt them in that moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but self-disclosure can be a connecting tool as well, we talk about this in the counseling world, so you might say, maddie, that sounds really, really hard. I think I know what you mean and now you have, you know, the opportunity to say, oh, you do, you know, like, if you're in a position to receive and want to connect, you know, through the sharing of my maybe empathetic story. Can you tell me a little bit about what that was? You know that's your choice now.
Speaker 2:You don't have to just listen to me vomit all over you and make it about myself and so again. So just trying to temper our urges to fix or share truth or share our personal stories with giving them permission to say is this helpful in this moment for you or not? Because you know. And so, yes, it's listening to the spirit. This is kind of an art form, but also, at the end of the day, you know, this is just like be relational. It's okay if it gets awkward for a moment. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because you can still say I'm sorry. I tried to share that I don't think that's what you needed, yeah, and then it's okay, because then that person still feels felt and seen yeah. So you know, just that's helpful. Embrace the awkwardness, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's super helpful. I think I find myself too. You were encouraging us towards vulnerability a little bit earlier, of the one another's and caring and that stepping out in vulnerability. But I think sometimes, like I know for me, I almost hold back in vulnerability with like. I have specific people that I am vulnerable with and then it's sometimes harder with the fear of being misunderstood or with the fear of being like, spewed back a fix, which I know is a mixture of my own sin and pride of like, like, oh you know, no, like I don't want to hear your solutions and like it's probably a mixture of I just want to be heard right now and my like pride and self-protection, but I know that that can be.
Speaker 1:I have to remind myself, too that like people are well-meaning and that we get to also voice and like vice versa, help people. Like, vice versa, help people like you were saying, like asking permission. We can also say and tell our friends hey, this is my need right now. You know, without them even asking us, we can do them a service too. Of like, hey, this is really hard, I just need to externally process right now I'm not like and you to just be here and be with me, you know, and I feel like sometimes that's helpful. When a friend tells that to me, great, I can like just being so forthright on both sides. I feel like it's helpful.
Speaker 2:but yeah, yeah, amen.
Speaker 1:All those principles are so helpful. So, kind of going off of that too and kind of I kind of want to just you kind of. You touched on empathy because you're passionate. That's. Another thing you're passionate about is empathy, but kind of tying all this relational stuff. You're passionate also about authentic, deep relationships and community and I love that. What does that look like for you? And how do we fight to have that in such an individualistic society? Yeah, how do we I feel like that goes along with like the caring the one another's If we're not fighting to have relationships we don't have the people to even care for? Yeah, what does that look like for you? Why is that so important?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I can't like be asked this question and not always think of one particular encounter that has just been anchoring for me in my life and so going back to that season of like acute suffering and sickness and kind of body just withering away and with it, you know, I would say, my emotional health to some degree and just kind of really just one thing after another, just crumbling, one thing after another, just crumbling. So here I was in seminary, surrounded by people training, to be professional Christians.
Speaker 2:right, and I don't want to sound harsh here because I can be kind of a little blasé about how I talk sometimes and I need to be careful but I remember, after I had kind of received my diagnosis which was the first diagnosis, which was the most important one in August of 2014, I had been kind of out of commission Again. This was a season of bedridden and everything like that, and so this was not a big seminary. So I, you know a lot of people knew that Ben was pretty sick and so. But I came back on campus for the first time and I'm one of those. You experienced a taste of this when I walked in this morning. You're like, how was your day? And I didn't give you just that. You know, common American, that was fine. Yeah, you know, I don't think I've ever been that way. But so people would ask me, as I, you know, would walk through the halls of the seminary, you know they'd be like, oh hey, ben, how are you?
Speaker 2:I'd be like not well alone and you know my suffering and you know somewhat ashamed. And then I was really, you know I just got this diagnosis and started this. You know biologic medication that was, you know, really big and scary sounding and everything and didn't know what this meant for the future right and for my family and just had all these big existential questions and so I wanted to be seen like so bad and for um.
Speaker 2:But I experienced like person after person who would ask you know, hey, ben, how are you? And I'm like dude, I'm not well, and they would like get awkward and be, would ask you know, hey, ben, how are you? And I'm like dude, I'm not well, and they would like get awkward and be like, okay, well, you know, sorry, like you know, like I'm praying for you, you know whatever and kind of move on, you know, about their life.
Speaker 2:Until I walked into one of the larger classrooms and my buddy, chris, was sitting there and I'll never forget Chris's face in this moment because he asked me that question and I told him that I was not okay. And this man in the midst of you know everybody was gathering their things to move on to their next thing that they had to do and he didn't flinch, he didn't move a muscle, he locked eyes with me and listened to me as tears streamed down my face as I told him I'm scared I don't know like what this means, you know.
Speaker 2:And he just locked eyes with me.
Speaker 2:Tears welled up in his eyes, started streaming down his face and it was like it was one of those moments and experiences, just like I was gazing into the eyes of Christ, right, and just this compassionate face.
Speaker 2:That was like I don't care what's going on in the world, I don't want to be anywhere else but with you, my brother, in your pain. And it's like he didn't even say much, right, he just sat there with me as long as he needed. And I'll never forget it was like fresh air entered in my lungs just through that experience of Chris's empathy in that moment, as he was willing to feel what I was feeling as much as he could and then offer me compassion and love. And it was just an anchoring moment for me, because I think I had just been waiting for so long to just feel, seen, feel felt, and that was somehow enough, like, even though it didn't make any of my problems go away, right, it was just. It was a tangible expression of the Father's heart toward me in that place of pain, confusion, lostness, that there was a solidarity expressed there, that I was like it's going to be okay. I don't know how but there's hope here. Wow.
Speaker 2:So I don't know what the rest of your question was now, because now I'm caught up in the emotions of retelling that story, but that's certainly what it looked like for me, like in a powerful way. What was it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what you're passionate about. Well, empathy was in there too, and you're passionate about authentic relationships and deep community, like how was that, what does that look like for you and why is that important and how do we fight to have that in such an individualistic society?
Speaker 2:Right? Well, I think you know what Chris did. That day was so important. To slow down, to be one who's willing to be self-aware and other aware in moments of connection and opportunities of connection to allow somebody else's story to listen Right.
Speaker 2:So we have to slow down. We have to pay attention to do that. We have to remove distractions. We have to slow down. We have to pay attention to do that. We have to remove distractions. Um, we have to model presence. You know all these. There's like, oh, seven nonverbals and I'm going to fumble through these but, Dan single is so great. Uh, dan Siegel is so great about these. Um it's eye contact, um tone of voice your posture, your timing of your responses, your gestures. Yeah, there's Cool. Look them up, people.
Speaker 1:Is this in a book, or like in an article that he wrote, or something?
Speaker 2:You can just probably.
Speaker 1:Google them, Okay cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Dan Siegel's nonverbal markers of communication. Because as much as 90%. Uh, you know, some researchers would say of communication is non-verbal and so like, and we usually fail right out the gate at that because, we're distracted, we're looking at our phone, our eyes are, you know it's hard to be locked in um. We're not mindful of our tone we're not willing to slow down and soften our voice, All those sorts of things which Chris did so wonderfully that day, and so I think it starts with some of those habits that you know, this is so beautiful.
Speaker 2:We get to practice these in our relationships already, and so I'll tell people practice this at home, you know. Practice this with your spouse, with your roommate, with your, you know, with your best friend, and then ask for feedback. Like hey, we just had a conversation and you're like, how did I do about? Just with my nonverbals and being present to you. Yeah. Did you feel like I was with you? I? Love that.
Speaker 2:But we need to become, you know, interruptible, and, and and an individualistic, fast paced, success driven society. Uh, society, we it's. You know this is countercultural stuff, so I I, I appreciate like that this is, this is going to take some work. I don't I don't say this lightly that like, oh, this is easy guys.
Speaker 1:Just like it.
Speaker 2:It takes work. I mean it like we're talking about for some of us, um freedom from a smartphone addiction, right, or um, you know, or other things, or cutting things from our schedule to make time to be with others, because we have a schedule that's way too jam-packed with activities, um, and we're constantly going everywhere but being with no one.
Speaker 2:And so you know, it's just some of those basic habits of presence, of communication, of listening, of reflective listening. You know so many of what I hear you saying is you know just some of these just basic habits, but that will make a world of difference in enabling us to literally become connected, like even at a neurobiological level, which is profound and we won't get into that today. But there's something that's even happening in our brains and our bodies when we actually do empathy and listening.
Speaker 2:well, it's creating integration in the mind of the other person, which is going to put them in a better position to work through and kind of come out of that pit in a sense. And so, yeah, I would say it's some of those skills. You know, we've got to just push against some of these cultures and thankfully this is a message that I think is increasing in its loudness. So, when you think of people like John Mark Comer and things writing books that are very, very written to this notion, there's great stuff out there to kind of coach us in how to do this and the value of it, and once you experience it, you don't want what you had before.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because what you're experiencing is true connection and, ultimately, intimacy, which is what we were created for, right. Intimacy with God, yeah, but also, as part of, you know, his creation, with one another. Yeah. And so yeah.
Speaker 1:That's super helpful. What encouragement do you have for, maybe, the person that is longing for authentic relationships and deep community, but they're struggling to find it? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, this is kind of a hard truth thing part of this, because you kind of have to ask the question am I doing, embodying what I wish were done and embodied for me? Um, so we need, we all need to start with ourselves. Am I being that kind of friend, that kind of patient, present, listener for? Somebody else.
Speaker 2:Um, so we, we start there. Then, you know, we can also also take stock of our lives. And again, am I putting myself in positions and places where these kinds of relationships can be cultivated? I mean, you can't live an think. There's like this dual need for those of us who might find ourselves in that place where we're longing to kind of take that risk, put ourselves out there, but also kind of become that which we wish to experience, and then, you know, those of us who might be in positions to receive those people, to be looking for them, we need to be looking for each other.
Speaker 2:Like, and I don't know that may sound like too abstract and goofy, but I going up like joining a small group and saying, hey, I really, really long to be in deep, authentic community. Yeah, and just you know, because so many of us are settling for the status quo. Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you get somebody who comes into a room and pitches that, you know how many people are going to be like me too. And then now we have a starting point. Well, great. Would you be a person I? Can share my life with. Let's go get coffee. Can you come over for dinner and take the kids to playground and we can talk and get to know each another. I just want to hear your story. I want mine to be heard. Let's just start there, yeah.
Speaker 1:Question asking, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. And just the encouragement of it's not going to happen overnight and it does take a long time. And even going back to how you were saying, like getting past the awkwardness sometimes in like meeting people and their stories, like you're not going to be best friends your first time hanging out at the park, like I even think of my best friend. Like the first time we hung out we left thinking nothing special, like we were both in really dark seasons but we left thinking nothing special about that.
Speaker 1:But God, over the course of like two plus years, grew this deep friendship as we like kept getting together and kept having touch points and kept like just proximity and consistency in a small group, like those little deposits totally add up. So if you've been to a small group, maybe you know four or five times and you're like gosh, I still don't feel known and I'm discouraged One. I love what, ben, what you were saying of be the person that invites someone to coffee. Then Be the person that asks someone the question or just says, hey, I'd love to be friends and also keep making deposits, like God does sweet things, like through proximity and consistency and through question asking and something deep like will grow, but it does take time regardless.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there may be a place for counseling here, and that counseling often becomes that for a lot of people you know, when they don't experience that in their spaces, that they already have, they end up in counseling. And so we'll often uncover, um, walking and working with people, that, like gosh, it sounds like what you need, you know more than counseling, is just community, like real good community. So let's, let's think about how to work on. How can we take steps toward that, like together, um, but on the flip side, like there may be legitimate issues, wounds, things that need to be talked about in a safe place where you know you're going to get a nonjudgmental presence and an empathetic listener, because we've been trained to be such, and that becomes the laboratory of sorts where now you get to.
Speaker 2:I mean this is not practice, but in a sense it is. I mean this is not practice, but in a sense it is. You practice the art of becoming known and you find it to be safe and healing. And now, all of a sudden, now I'm free to open up in that group that I was too scared to open up in, because I've seen, I've tasted and seen the goodness that can come from this. Cool, there could be a place for that Cool.
Speaker 1:Okay, so part of your story and your journey you and your wife's journey has been one of infertility and God has made you now passionate in talking about it. Can you share with us a little bit about that and, yeah, what God has has taught you through it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, um, so the story, uh, essentially is, you know so, amidst being newly married and going to seminary and everything you know, we obviously were content to not have kids for the first few years of marriage.
Speaker 2:You know, albeit, you know, I was almost 30 when we got married and everything. So we knew like we didn't want to wait like too long, but we were content, you know, waiting a few years. And then when my health stuff kind of really like tanked, we didn't really anticipate that pregnancy would come easily Right. We didn't really anticipate that pregnancy would come easily right. And so, I mean, I had to take just multiple rounds of steroids and immunomodulators and like all these sorts of different medications, and my body had just gone through thing after thing. And so we, yeah, didn't really think that this would maybe necessarily be easy, but then, once my health got stable and lined out, I think there was more of a hope that it would be something that happened for us. And so then, when we started trying, and you know, kind of a year without success, we decided to seek some medical advice and you know kind of like what's going on and anyways, promptly learned that we had infertility on my part kind of 0% chance.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I mean that was devastating, I mean this was in the wake of what felt like so many dreams for us just crushing right. And so it was really, really hard and I think you know I can't do justice to in this space and time to what that was like for me, what that was like for my wife. That's why I think that conversation would be so helpful, because I know if anybody's listening to this and going through this or knows, or loves somebody, that is. I just think there's so much value in hearing it from both sides. But suffice to say it was challenging. And in the middle of this we moved from Orlando to Charleston, South Carolina, to be part of some different ministry opportunities, like I mentioned, and then got a second opinion and kind of nail in the proverbial coffin, then, like no, you know, nothing's changed, this isn't going to happen.
Speaker 2:And so then we started the kind of the wrestling of you know what to do, how are we going to build our family, and everything. And we wrestled with, you know, some fertility options, although those weren't really like good options for us because of the diagnosis that I had. It wasn't like you know, certain things were kind of off the table and other things were questionable Would this even be effective? And then we really kind of also had to wrestle with some of the ethics and things. And just you know what did we feel like was was going to be best and and walking in wisdom and and everything for us.
Speaker 2:And so so, when adoption became the path, my wife had a friend who they had been walking through a similar journey and they had begun their family through the miracle of embryo adoption, which a lot of people still don't know what that is, and so it's essentially embryo adoption is when there's remaining embryos from in vitro fertilization cycles. They can be quote unquote adopted, although legally it's property transfer. Quote adopted, although legally it's property transfer. And therefore, you know, a mother can carry a child that's biologically not related to either her or the father and so anyway.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's pretty wild. It's kind of like sci-fi, crazy you know stuff, because our son was essentially in a freezer for a decade before he became part of our family and so, but my gosh, he is just the most amazing thing. And so I would say, like early on in, like our journey, and maybe even before we knew it was our journey, my big sis was going through their own and her husband, my brother-in-law, and so we watched them go through their own infertility journey. And my sister said something to me one time casually, because they have quite the story themselves they ended up adopting five siblings through foster care themselves. I ended up adopting five siblings through foster care, but she told me one time that God writes the best stories, and so, as we were on the cusp of learning the next chapter in ours, that it involved infertility and another dream shattered and a huge question mark over the future and everything, this little comment from my big sis just echoed in my heart that that, along with some other things that I've heard throughout my life, that I just can't let go of, kind of enabled me, in the midst of grief and pain and confusion, disappointment, all the things, to have this curiosity of what beauty might emerge from these ashes because, that's who our god is, and so, um and my gosh, now you know our boy's gonna be six in a couple months and I'm like I
Speaker 2:had no idea how much beauty would emerge, because he's just the most incredible little boy and now we're on the cusp of Lord willing getting to experience some new forms of beauty through adopting in India, and we have no idea how that's going to rock our world. But I'm just like God, you do, you write the best stories, and so that kind of yeah anchored us through it. But it was messy, it was hard.
Speaker 2:You know it still is hard sometimes. You know, certainly it's a grief that doesn't really go away. But we've seen so much beauty emerge from not only God building our family, but getting to walk with and steward this part of our lives and stories for others, and so we've gotten to walk with multiple, multiple couples and have them in our home and grieve with them and walk with them and see them experience their own forms of beauty, and that can look like a lot of different things. So so, yeah, that's kind of how that journey has looked for us, and so if, yeah, if anybody's in that place now, I just have all the empathy and compassion in the world, and I would just say that's a very lonely road.
Speaker 2:Often, unfortunately, it's one that's still kind of taboo to talk about, and so I would say you need to not carry that by yourself though. You need to find somewhere, even if you have to go to counseling. But if you've got community, if you've got people you know, you trust, that love you, to let them in to that part of your heart. That's hurting and story, because it is a hard road, but one in which I have seen time and time again, yeah, beauty emerge from those ashes of those dreams.
Speaker 1:So yeah, what encouragement or advice do you have for because you, or if you have more encouragement you kind of just spoke to the person walking through their own journey of infertility right now so that was my last question, but you kind of touched on that If you do have more encouragement for them, and then after that, what encouragement do you have for friends or family that are walking alongside someone struggling with infertility, like what would maybe be something helpful for them to hear, like how to walk with them. Well, yeah.
Speaker 1:Which kind of you taught us this whole podcast? Maybe how to like listen, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think and this can take very different forms.
Speaker 2:So you know, there might be somebody who's dealing with frequent miscarriages, or who has experienced a stillbirth, or who just never got the opportunity to become pregnant, and I would say, each one of those it's all grief, and so there is a certain one-size-fits-all in terms of just the empathy and compassion that we need to offer those in those places, but it is nuanced by the type of loss that people are experiencing. And so I would just say, if you know somebody who, yeah, yeah, it's getting back to that, listening and but, but, just being most people I know and have talked to and walk with, who have gone through this and experienced loss in this area, they have appreciated when somebody has asked them how that grief journey is going, it honors that person and maybe that baby that never was or they lost, and so I think this is one of those we're afraid to touch because, like we don't want to kind of um rock the boat. They seem to be doing okay, so let me just leave them there uh it's most people.
Speaker 2:Uh, welcome the hey. How are you doing? I haven't asked you in a little while I know, you know you and your husband are, are struggling, and I can't imagine what that's like. I just want you to know I've been thinking about you.
Speaker 2:Yeah and oh, how powerful that could be just to feel honored in that place of grief and shame and pain that often comes with infertility and pregnancy loss and all those sorts of things, and this goes for the guys too. I mean, this is that's an area we don't talk about. A whole lot.
Speaker 2:But having those conversations with them as well, and so just being willing to ask the questions, to move in um to those places and then, yeah, be becoming that empathetic listener that's willing to just sit with those wherever they're at as you know how they are at Um and in that way embody both the presence and the hope that God is here, and if he's here, then eventually I have hope that there might be some form of beauty that might emerge from these ashes in my life. And so yeah.
Speaker 1:That's super helpful. Thanks for sharing about that and I will be linking in the show notes. Ben and his wife Joy did a podcast episode on a podcast that Ben used to have kind of still maybe has in the future called. What's it called again?
Speaker 2:It's called Reclaiming Hope.
Speaker 1:Reclaiming Hope and they recorded an episode together sharing about their journey, so I'm going to link that in the show notes and that would probably be super helpful.
Speaker 2:It was the most listened to episode we did, which is very telling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people feeling seen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the percentage of struggle that's out here related to this is much more than we realize, or?
Speaker 1:talk about yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks for recording that. Yeah, I will link that in the show notes. Okay, we have a few questions. Wrap this up. What is a lie that you've believed that God has had to, or maybe is still uprooting in your heart, and what gospel truth has he been?
Speaker 2:reminding you, or did he remind you, to squash that lie? Well, I tend to wrestle with, oh, wounds which you know become targets for lies of like abandonment or insecurity or things like that. So the notion that I'm alone or going to be left alone, or things are, I think, frequent struggles that I've had over the years, and what gospel truth I mean. Well, I can, you know, rattle off verse after verse, but I think what's been most transformative in my life is those people God has raised up to embody that gospel truth in moving toward me, you know, in those places of ultimate pain and shame.
Speaker 2:My wife has been, I think, the epitome of this and her just constant, steady, faithful presence through all the lows and all the, you know, dark nights and things that we've had and stuff. And so you know just that beautiful image of you know, this whole journey and experience of salvation is not just this ascending to a belief, it's this engrafting into a body and experiencing God as much as we cognitively, you know, interact with him and everything like that. And so it's been the experience of his people in powerful, tangible ways that has been anchoring for me when those lies assault me, that I'm alone or I'm going to be left alone. And so it's been when my wife has echoed words of covenantal love like Ben, I love you, I'm not going anywhere. Yeah, I know this is horrible.
Speaker 2:I love you, I'm not going anywhere. I know this is horrible. I love you, I'm not going anywhere. I mean that is covenantal love and that originates in the heart of the Father, and so yeah.
Speaker 1:So cool. Okay, someone out there is listening to this and maybe, god willing, for the first time, thinking I want to respond to the gospel, I want to know and follow Jesus. What is a tangible next step for them? What advice do you have for them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think I'll kind of parrot what I just said. So praise God, brother or sister. If that is you, I want to celebrate that with you. I mean just being given eyes to see and a heart that's soft and tender toward God and his goodness and his love, and the truth of the gospel is just, there's nothing like it, and I would kind of repeat what I just said in that that though this is, I think of, like Psalm 62, you know trust in the Lord at all times, and so there is placing your trust. So there is this active response of belief in God and believing this good news that there is there but then the next line says pour out your trying to get at.
Speaker 2:There is, if that's you and God is stirring in your heart.
Speaker 2:There is belief here that you want to grasp with your mind, but there is also invitation into relationship, and God wants relationship with you. He wants you to pour your heart out to him, and so I would encourage you to do that too, you know, and that starts you know, as an infant Christian that starts with the honest confession of like God, I am not my own, you know, and I'm far from you. I've been far from you, my sin has kept me from you, but yet I see that you've wiped it all away, and you know, and so pouring your heart out to him. And so that also, I think, implicit in that is this reality that you're not saved just to have a set of beliefs and then exist on an island for the rest of your life nurturing those beliefs. You are saved and engrafted into a body, and so, as much as you are created with relationship and connection and intimacy with God, it's also with his body, his people, and so finding those people, find those people, just go find them.
Speaker 2:Amen, they're out there Go find them Amen. They're out there and embrace them and be embraced and, you know, saddle up for the messy ride that is. You know, relationships in the body of Christ, but take heart knowing that he is making all things new and that he'll give you eyes to see. Yeah, his beauty emerge all around as you go.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen, amen. Okay, to wrap up our time, we have some rapid fire questions. This will be the true test of your no notes. So here we go, you can take your time. We'll cut out the the, the bosses. Okay, we got some rapid fire questions. Keyword rapid keyword fire.
Speaker 2:Are you ready, ready?
Speaker 1:Most impactful verse on your life all time.
Speaker 2:All time. Oh, I think it's Psalm 73, maybe 26, somewhere in through 26 to 28. My flesh and my heart might fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
Speaker 1:Favorite book all time.
Speaker 2:I struggle with this one because I'm not a great reader but I have read some good books. I think of books like Knowing God by JI Packer as a great kind of introduction to systematic theology. I think of a book called I think it's called Bruised Reed by Richard Sibbes. By Richard Sibbes, it's an old book, kind of referencing the famous passage prophetic of our Savior that he will not break a bruised reed. He will not snuff out a smoldering wick.
Speaker 2:That little book I read in seminary and wrote a paper on it when I was in the middle of feeling like a smoldering wick that may be about to be snuffed out. Wow, so that was a good book. I love the Soul of Shame by Kurt Thompson. That's been one of the more transformative books in my life in recent years.
Speaker 1:Okay, amazing Favorite song right now Are you a music guy?
Speaker 2:I am a music guy. I'm a music guy who doesn't always look at what's Totally who's singing this song?
Speaker 1:Yeah, who's singing?
Speaker 2:always look at what's Totally. Who's singing this song? Totally, but I will say so. I'm really into Russ. Moore right now M-O-H-R.
Speaker 2:Okay, and he has a song called Someday Soon and it's a short song that he wrote. I think must have been at the beginning of COVID, but I hear it and I imagine he wrote it in that kind of eschatological sense of like kind of. Someday soon, you know, every tear will be wiped away. There'll be no more fear sickness, no more suffering, and it's just a really hopeful song. And it's so soulful y'all.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:Russ Moore. He's a G.
Speaker 1:Amazing Favorite song all time time. Is there one that rises above?
Speaker 2:oh, um you, oh, my gosh. I could, I could talk about so many, but I, I think I'm gonna say I'm to go with Shane and Shane Embracing Accusations. That is old school. It's a good one, but if you haven't heard it, I still can't listen to that song, and probably not weep. Favorite food Anything. My wife wakes. She's the most amazing cook in the world, but I'm really enjoying her Indian food that she is cooking and learning to cook.
Speaker 1:Amazing.
Speaker 2:Obviously, it's going to be important for our future families.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so sweet, that's so cool Okay favorite Bible teacher to listen to oh Gavin Johnson.
Speaker 2:He's from City Light Omaha. No, I do love Gavin. I think I'm classic. You know I loved Tim Keller, john Piper, some of those yeah.
Speaker 1:Favorite podcast, this one.
Speaker 2:No, you can't even say that. Does that okay, sorry, um, I think my favorite podcast right now is probably the being known podcast with dr kurt thompson cool love. That something not many people know about you well, people are always um surprised to know that I went to military school twice.
Speaker 1:How old were you the first time?
Speaker 2:14, 15.
Speaker 1:And then the second time, 18. Okay, what are you loving right now? Could be literally anything. Your toaster, a restaurant gardening a candle sitting outside, could be anything.
Speaker 2:I don't have a toaster sitting outside. It could be anything. I don't have a toaster. Um, I am loving and trying to love the chaos that is my home right now, as we have, you know, our five-year-old boy and our seven-month-old golden retriever just constantly wrestling and chasing each other like they're twin brothers, so sweet often ending and our son crying because it got too rough or whatever. Um, but I'm just trying to trying to love and enjoy the joy on display in my home I love that.
Speaker 1:How can our friends listening today be praying for you and your family?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the thing that surfaces most prominently, of course, is our adoption that we're going through right now. So we're in the matching phase. We are not yet matched, we are waiting to be matched.
Speaker 2:So, just yeah, we would love any and all prayers that God would prepare our hearts and our home for this little one, likely a little girl, who will be having some sort of special medical need, as most international adoptions are special needs now in one form or another. So just for God's best for that little one and for us, and just bringing us together and doing it, of course, in His timing, but we're obviously eager to meet her or him, but we'll see, but me and Eli are a team girl.
Speaker 1:I love it If you would just take a moment and pause and pray for the Hamiltons and their sweet future. Baby boy or girl, girl, wait, will it be, will not? Will she or he be a baby or could be any age?
Speaker 2:Probably two or three-year-old.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, we'll be praying. Where can people find you? If you want to be found, if you don't want to be found, that's fine too. You can totally. I can just not even have this question on there too, if you don't really care to be found.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean, I have a Facebook, but I deactivate it all the time. Amazing. So I don't know how I could be found, yeah.
Speaker 1:If you want to find him, he'll be in Omaha, ben. This has been such a joy. I learned so much. I'm so encouraged by so many things that you said and I'm so genuinely excited to put so many things I learned from you, god willing, into practice. So thanks for taking a very long time out of your day to teach us, to encourage us and to share your story with us. I'm super grateful. Thanks for being here. It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me, honey. Okay, that was just so helpful.
Speaker 1:All of his wisdom on listening and being there for people that are in suffering. I just found that super helpful. So many little nuggets, the 10 non-verbals from that one guy. I'm going to also link that in the show notes too. But I feel like now I can't stop thinking about that 90% of our communication is non-verbal and just longing to be there better for my friends and for the people around me that are mourning and I for sure failed at this many times. But I'm excited for these tools to have moving forward and I loved what he said about asking the people around us how our nonverbal communication is. I loved all that. I loved his three prayers God, would you break me, keep me uncomfortable and use me Are you kidding me? Like whoa? Those were just super impactful. This conversation just had a big impact on me. I'm excited to hear what God taught you through it. And yeah, ben was just such a joy to have on.
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