Sunny & 65 with Madi Schultz
Join Madi Schultz as she imperfectly pursues Jesus and emphatically encourages you to do the same. Through scripture, conversations, and testimonies— Madi's prayer is that you would walk away from listening to each episode with a greater affection for Jesus + experience the freedom He has for you in deeper ways.
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Sunny & 65 with Madi Schultz
Episode 78: Courtney Doctor
This conversation with Courtney Doctor was SWEET HONEY TO MY SOUL. Courtney is an author, Bible teacher, frequent conference and retreat speaker, and the Director of Women's Initiatives at The Gospel Coalition. In this episode, Courtney tells us all about her latest book— From Garden to Glory: How Understanding God's Story Changes Yours. Courtney teaches and disciples us for an hour straight and I cannot wait for this episode to bless you like it did me! I want to be like Courtney when I grow up!!! Seriously though.
Enjoy!
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From Garden To Glory by Courtney Doctor
A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Vanauken
Even Better Than Eden by Nancy Guthrie
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Hey friends, welcome back to the Sending 65 Podcast. I'm your host, maddie Schultz, and today I am joined by Courtney Docter. We talk all about her new book From Garden to Glory. She disciples us, teaches us. Gosh, this episode was just such a delight and I'm praying that it blesses you as much as it blessed me. Enjoy, hi, courtney, welcome to the podcast. Hey, maddie, Thanks for having me. God's just wild, and Courtney's son and I and his family, we live like less than seven minutes away from one another.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:Courtney. For context, I've never met Courtney. Courtney lives in North Georgia. She just told me, right North.
Speaker 2:Georgia yes, north Georgia, but we have literally been at the same grocery store, the same coffee shop, same park. We're having yeah, this is a fun, it's like you said this is wild.
Speaker 1:It's so fun. God is insane. So super excited to have you on today, Courtney, and just honored that you'd take the time to come and chat with us. So many things we get to chat about today. So, besides God just already being wild and I can't wait to meet your daughter-in-law and son Tell us the quick gist about yourself.
Speaker 2:Well they are. I have four of those, four of those people, four of those kids. They're all adults. They're my favorite people in the whole world. Three of them are married. So I really feel like I've got seven and, yeah, just love them, adore them, and they've given me five amazing, darling, precious little grandchildren that are my joy, my heart, my life. I absolutely love them. I do have a husband too I should talk about him and we have a dog that we're a little bit obsessed with. His name is Walter. How can you not be obsessed about a dog named Walter? So sweet yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, okay. So what do you do now? Did you always work throughout your life? Did you stay at home? What do you do now? And what brought you guys to Georgia?
Speaker 2:Ooh, the whole thing. Let's see, I stayed home predominantly in the very early years and then the Lord called us to homeschool for five years, which was a whole adventure in and of itself Because I've got the four kids, but there's a 10-year age gap between the oldest and the youngest. So that was kind of a whole thing. We lived in the country and loved it. And then when the boys went to college, I was in my early 40s and the Lord called my husband and I to go to seminary.
Speaker 2:But before that I was teaching a lot in the local church. I was traveling and speaking, so teaching was very much a part of what the Lord had called me to do. And then we went to seminary and I went on staff as director of women's ministry in a local church. I had served in women's ministry for years as a lay leader, went on staff after seminary and then started working at the Gospel Coalition and continue to just teach and write. I've added writing into that mix, which has been a whole adventure in and of itself, but I feel like I've done a little bit of everything.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's amazing. Where did you guys go to seminary?
Speaker 2:We went to Covenant Theological Seminary in St Louis and it was just an amazing experience Fantastic seminary, Amazing when are all your children at One in Omaha? Got one in Omaha. I've got two here, really in Chattanooga. We live just a little south of Chattanooga, so two in Chattanooga and then one in Tampa Florida.
Speaker 1:Okay, fun. And do you get to Tampa a lot too, like you get to, I try.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I do try. I'm kind of, you know, when we decided we moved here two years ago and uh, and it part of that was like, well, I'm still going to make sure that I can get to see, get to see these people at least every other month.
Speaker 1:Where were you before you were there?
Speaker 2:We were in St Louis. We stayed in St Louis, so we were there for 11 years and love, love, love St Louis. I was just back there this weekend helping, do you know, dwell Differently the ministry Dwell Differently with Natalie and Vera, the two sisters. Oh, look it up, it's a fantastic ministry. I highly commend it to all of your listeners. It's scripture memory and they just launched a new book. So I got to be in St Louis this weekend helping them with their book launch and it was just so fun being back. I just love St Louis, but I also love what they're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did your two kids already live in Georgia.
Speaker 2:And then you were like, okay, two of them were there, exactly, exactly, yes, so all of them went to school outside of Chattanooga and so two of them stayed and it's just a fun town. It's a really fun town.
Speaker 1:Okay, can you tell us about when you came to know and follow Jesus?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I do. Looking back now it's it's so much more clear. I do think I came to saving faith in between the summer, between seventh and eighth grade I had been invited to go to church camp. My family went to church but growing up I wouldn't say that they really were followers of Jesus. They are now by his mercy and grace, but that was not yeah. So we just kind of went to church as more of a cultural thing to do. But I did get invited to go to church camp.
Speaker 2:I heard the gospel, I responded and was even at the time I had a friend that was with me and she said Courtney, you're making too big of a deal about this. And I said you know my little seventh grade self. How old are you in seventh grade? 12, 13. And I said I said no, this is going to require everything Like.
Speaker 2:I knew that at that early age and you know what I thought that meant was very different than what it actually means. But then there really was no discipleship. So my high school and college years you would never have thought I was a believer. I did not look like a believer, act like a believer, did not pursue the Lord. But you know what. He's so faithful to us and he is going to finish that good work that he started.
Speaker 2:And so about, well, mid-college I would say, I was starting to feel this desire to come back. I just had no idea how to do it. And he ended up, I got married and we moved to Jackson Mississippi and we went to church and it was a phenomenal church where we heard, you know, the beauty of the gospel of grace and my husband and I both I came back into a relationship with the Lord, my husband came to a relationship with the Lord and, yeah, it's amazing just to look back and see his faithfulness but his power and his mercy and his kindness. And then he just immediately gave me a real hunger to know him and to know his word. And so I pretty quickly started just diving in, trying to, you know, know this God. That was so kind and so merciful.
Speaker 1:So sweet that the Lord, at such a young age like, brought you this understanding of even if, like you said, you were going to understand fully later what that actually. But you were like no, this requires everything, like whoa.
Speaker 2:I know, isn't that sweet. It's just like a little fingerprint that you see, like okay, the Lord was showing me then something that I understand more now, which is really beautiful.
Speaker 1:I have a different but similar story in the sense that you would have known, because I said that I followed Jesus, but by the rest of my life, for a while, even though I possibly had saving faith, and thankfully neither of us have to, we don't have to wonder, you know, but I remember, yeah, in that same way, god's kindness to like then put the right church and the right people and bring me then deeper understanding. And so, yeah, just the encouragement to anyone listening God's drawing you back to himself and he's not mad at you that you maybe haven't been living the way that his word instructs us to, that he's gentle with these slow learners.
Speaker 2:Right, he's so kind and none of those things save us, right.
Speaker 1:It's not our understanding of him.
Speaker 2:It's not our even obedience and alignment the way our lives, don't? I mean he takes care of that. That's part of the life of discipleship, but it's not part of our salvation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so good. Okay, if you're willing, would you tell us about a season of suffering and how you saw the Lord show up in it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm old enough to have had several of those seasons of suffering. But even just as we were talking, that was part of what the Lord used in those early years when we moved to Jackson. I had always had, you know, friend groups and things that I could do that were performative, that I would get, you know, good feedback, whether it was my grades or whatever, just kind of that. And he took us to Jackson, mississippi, and I had no friends and the Southern culture for me was hard to break into and everything about my identity was shifting. And I just remember crying out to him I'm lonely, I'm scared, I don't even know who I am anymore.
Speaker 2:I have nothing in which to put my identity, all these things that had always sort of held it for me. He took those from me and the beautiful thing about that is, I feel like he took that opportunity to take things away from me. That caused me to look at him and it gave him the opportunity to say, okay, I'm going to tell you who you are and it's not in any of those things. And that was so deeply formative, so deeply formative. And so they were hard years, but I wouldn't trade them for anything because they shaped me in a way that I wouldn't have been shaped if I hadn't gone through them.
Speaker 1:Wow, praise the Lord.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Thanks for sharing that with us. Okay, before we dive into chatting about your new book, like you said, you're the directors of Women's Initiatives at the Gospel Coalition, so what does your job entail and look like on a daily basis, and do you love it or do you love it?
Speaker 2:I do love it. I love it so much. I love it so much. So the Gospel Coalition is a ministry that is predominantly focused on resourcing ministry leaders in the local church globally, and so I get to think through ways to support women in ministry around the world, and we do things like cohorts, where we train women how to teach the Bible or how to structure a women's ministry. We produce resources like Bible studies and articles that hopefully are trustworthy and they're gospel-centered. And then we do have this conference every other year that is meant to strengthen and edify the church, and so we're heading into that in just a little bit. It'll be in June in Indianapolis, and we'd love for any of your listeners to come.
Speaker 2:It is. It's thousands and thousands of women from around the world gather to hear good teaching, to go to the breakouts and see how the gospel applies to all these different areas of life. Great worship Shane and Shane are leading us in worship and we just found out they're going to write a song for the conference, and so we're so excited about that. Yeah, I know, I don't even know if that was, if I'm not supposed to say that, so that's a little sneak peek right there for your audience alone. I don't, I haven't said that to anybody else, and so we're just, yeah, we're really, really excited about it. But to get to be a part of something and to see the Lord move is such a privilege. It's just such a privilege.
Speaker 1:Wow. So what does kind of into the nitty gritty like what specifically does your role look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I get to work with a team that we think through creative ways to resource the church. So this past year we produced this thing called Retreat Ready, which is we have four different retreat packages that a church can just purchase. And you know, we were looking at small churches, church plants, global churches that don't have the financial or time resources to put on a women's retreat and bring in, you know, a Bible teacher, and so we produce these four retreats. Well, we just um the. The 100th one was just used and that's been really fun to know that that that many women have gathered to um to hear God's word. And and then the Bible studies that we've produced through the years. Um have been just such a privilege to be a part of in one way or another.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's so cool. Are you fully remote? Is everyone fully remote? Everybody's?
Speaker 2:fully remote. We have a guy on marketing lives in the UK. We have people on design that are in the Dominican Republic. We have my personal team is just all over the US, but yeah, we are all over.
Speaker 1:Do you guys gather together? Like some of the, when you have, like, specific things that you got to do, or okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, we get together in person as much as we possibly can.
Speaker 1:Okay, Well, if you I feel like if you listen to the podcast, you've probably heard of the Gospel Coalition, but if you haven't, oh my gosh, at least once a week, multiple times a week, I'm on the Gospel Coalition looking up an article. Like finding a resource looking up an article, just being blessed by everything that they're doing.
Speaker 2:So, oh, my goodness, Well, and I'd love to give your audience a discount code if they want to come to the conference. So, first of all. First of all, if you're Gen Z, it is a static rate. It has never gone up. I can't remember exactly what it is, but if you're Gen Z it's a discounted rate already. If you're not Gen Z, you can just use my first name, courtney, all caps, and then the number 25, and that'll give you $25 off.
Speaker 1:Thank you, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:That's such a blessing. It'd be so fun to have your people there. We're going to the seven. Keynotes will be on the seven I am statements of Jesus, so that's really fun. And then we've got 50 breakouts with over 60 speakers, so lots to come and learn.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, do you guys share for the people that won't be able to come? Do you guys share some of the teaching after? Obviously, probably the breakouts aren't shared.
Speaker 2:No, they are. So the keynotes you can live stream the keynotes, which is really fun, and then the breakouts will be recorded. There's a few that won't be, but most of them are recorded and will be shared later. So, yeah, you'll have access to all of it.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I'll share the in the show notes. I'll share the code that she shared, too, in the show notes. I'll share the code that she shared too. Oh my gosh, everyone go. I was just telling Courtney that I've been trying to go over the last two years last year and this year and can't and next year is my year, by God's grace. I'm like God, come on, please help, let me go.
Speaker 2:We've got to figure out a way to get you there.
Speaker 1:Okay. So by the time this episode comes out, you will have released your latest book. Wait, when does it release? May 7th, may 7th, okay. From Garden to Glory. How Understanding God's Story Changes Yours so exciting. Through scripture and stories, you aim to help reveal how each reader's seemingly small story fits into God's grand narrative. So tell us all about the book, how God led you to write it and how does our story fit into God's grand narrative Without spoiling too much, because obviously I want everyone to buy the book.
Speaker 2:But maybe spoil some, since it's Genesis to Revelation, I don't think I can spoil too much. So the way the book was written is well, my husband and I went to seminary together, which is a whole crazy story in and of itself, right, but the very first class we took was a year-long class with five professors. So the seminary is investing pretty heavily in this class and it was called Covenant Theology and that was where they really gave us this framework for reading and understanding scripture. And the framework is you can hear it so many different ways the metanarrative or the big picture, the big story. But the fact that the Bible is one cohesive story from beginning to end, that it is a story with one major plot line and that is God's redemption of all things, that he's on this rescue mission to redeem all things back to himself. And you've heard, the story is structured in these four main parts creation, fall redemption, new creation. Those are the four main movements, the plot movements in the story. It's what the story is about. It's in the story. It's what the story is about.
Speaker 2:And so, as I sat in this class and I started understanding how this framework changed and helped the way, I not just understood and loved the Bible, but understood and loved God. I thought, okay, not everybody can take a year and come, sit in this class and learn this. And so I just had this burning desire to just take this information and make it really accessible. So I first wrote it as a Bible study and that came out in 2016. And the whole time it was the first thing I wrote, and so the whole time I was writing, I just kept asking the Lord, you know, let this be helpful, because if it's not helpful, I don't want to spend my time doing this. I'm not a writer and so the writing is hard for me, and so I thought I really don't want to spend my time doing this if it's not helpful.
Speaker 2:And you know just the way the Lord is, like you were saying at the beginning that was the word that came back to me over and over is this was so helpful? Whether and I was hearing it from brand new believers and I was hearing it from women who'd walked with the Lord for 40 years Like this is so helpful? And I thought I get that, because that's what it was for me it was that it was so helpful. So it was a Bible study. It did well, and then I had the opportunity to turn it into a 10 chapter book with discussion questions at the end, and I think it's a better. I think that's a better format for it. So that comes out May 7th. I am so excited about it, just because I do think it is. It was something that was so foundational and and almost paradigm shifting for me and how I understood who God is, what he's doing and how my life is part of that great drama of redemption.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay, so how can understanding the Bible as the great narrative that you're talking about, how can that change one's faith? How have you seen that change your faith?
Speaker 2:I did say that it helped me love the Bible more, and part of that is that it helped me see the love the Bible more, and part of that is that it helped me see the cohesiveness of it, the way it really does hold together, and so my trust in the Word of God increased. But then it started the parts that don't make as much sense, leviticus or you know. You just go through and you're like I don't understand what that has to do. Learning to read it as a story. Those parts started making more sense that, like any good story, it progresses. And so you know scripture is called a progressive revelation, meaning we know more about God at the end than we did at the beginning.
Speaker 2:And so my understanding and love and trust in the Bible increased. But then you start seeing God go on this rescue mission and he stops at nothing. I mean his faithfulness to his word and to the heart of his mission. To redeem a people for himself is astounding because we are unfaithful and we are constantly wandering and sinful, and he just continues to pursue and to accomplish all that he set out to do. And so my love of him and my trust in him increased that when he says I will never leave you or forsake you. And you read the story, it's like oh, he will never leave us or forsake us.
Speaker 2:He's committed to this. He's committed to us, and then understanding my own life in it, because in Isaiah 46, he says I am God alone, there is no other. I am the one who knows the end from the beginning. Well, that's true of his story, but that's also true of my story and your story. And so he does know the end from the beginning, and he is holding all things together and he is the one that works them all out for our good. And Romans 8.32 says that he did not spare his own son, but graciously gave him up for us. How will he not also, with him, give us all things?
Speaker 2:And I might have botched that a little bit, but that's basically it. And the point is he's done all of this to redeem us. If we need the lesser things, he's going to give them, and so if he's not giving the lesser things, then it means we don't need them. So just my love and trust and joy in his word, in him and even in how he's writing my story have just all increased as a result of understanding this metanarrative.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that so much, Encouraged by so many I mean so many things said, and the last thing of like, if we need it, he's going to give it to us.
Speaker 2:If we don't?
Speaker 1:he's not. And just that reminder of when we are meditating on and just devouring God's word. When we are meditating on and just devouring God's word, we get to know him more like who he is, who he says he is and, yeah, trusting him with the littlest of things like our Wi-Fi working or not working. Like God, we trust that if you want it to work, it will. God, if you want this episode to be shared, like we trust you. If you don't, we trust that it's just for us two today.
Speaker 2:Like, okay, we trust you If you don't we trust that it's just for us to today Like okay.
Speaker 1:Exactly Right, right, yes. And then the freedom. The freedom that comes with that for your entire life. It's mind blowing, okay. So what risk do we run if we don't understand God's story from garden to glory?
Speaker 2:Well, I think we run the risk of reading pieces and parts of scripture out of context, not understanding how they are part of the story. We risk misunderstanding what God is doing at any given point. And so when we it's called, looking at the redemptive historical context, you know what did they know about God at that point in the story, what was God, what was he doing at that point in the story, what covenants were already in place? And so you know we, we know that Paul knew a lot more about God than Abraham did. So we have to read in light of that. We have to remember that the Bible is so much more than a piece of literature, but it's not less than a piece of literature. And so we intuitively know how to do that when we're reading a book. So we need to apply that to reading the Bible that it is, at its core, a piece of literature. It is narrative, even though there's different types of literature in it.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you've ever read the book book A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Van Auken. No, but I need to. It's so good, but it's autobiographical and in the context of the story he shares letters that CS Lewis wrote to he and his wife, and when you're reading it you realize, oh, this is a letter that's in the context of the story and it makes sense in light of that. But we don't always read Paul's letters like that, do we? We read them as these isolated things. We forget that there was an original audience, that Moses was writing to a particular group of people, jeremiah was writing to a particular group of people, paul was writing to a particular group of people. Paul was writing to a particular group of people, and so it helps us to remember that this story has historical context, it has redemptive historical context, and it helps us be more faithful readers and not ask the Bible to do something that it wasn't intended to do.
Speaker 1:That's super, super helpful. Like you were saying that we read other books in that way, I was like, well, that was really helpful. We read. When we're reading other books, we're like, oh yeah, clearly this is from then, but then when we read the Bible, for some reason we forget that. So that's a really helpful tool when reading it. Okay, so like any good story, there there's a terrifying villain. So if the serpent defeated Adam and Eve, how are we to stand a chance of battling sin?
Speaker 2:Such a good question, maddie. It's such a good question. So I said a few minutes ago that the story is structured with these four main parts. Right, creation so that's how God made everything and he made it good. We read about it primarily in Genesis 1 and 2.
Speaker 2:Then there's the fall. That's Genesis 3. That's when Adam and Eve sinned and, as a result, everything was subject to the curse. Right, we read later in Colossians that it's called the domain of darkness, and we know that every human being, from that point on, is born into this domain of darkness. It's why, in Christ, we have to be born again. That's what he tells Nicodemus in John's gospel. And so there's creation.
Speaker 2:Then there's the fall, but then there's redemption. That's when Christ came and fulfilled the law and died a substitutionary death, and he lived the perfect life. He rose victorious, and when we're united to him, we've been redeemed. So that's redemption. That's the third part of the story. And when we're united to him, we've been redeemed. So that's redemption. That's the third part of the story. And then we look forward to the new creation, the new heavens and the new earth, and we read about that predominantly in Revelation 21 and 22. So you've got these bookends of scripture Genesis 1 and 2, revelation 21 and 22. And then you've got all the middle part, which is the fall and everything that happened as a result God's great rescue mission redemption. We're redeemed in Christ and then we wait for the new heavens and the new earth. So this is what this has to do with sin.
Speaker 2:So those four parts of the story also correspond to how we, as humanity relate to sin. So in the garden, adam and Eve were able to sin. Right, that's obvious. They didn't have to, but they were able to. After the fall, every single person who is born is born with their relationship to sin. It's this. They are not able to not sin. That's how you and I enter the world, and if any two-year-old is going to testify to that very, very clearly, it's who we are. We are not able to not sin, but in Christ, when we are redeemed and we're united to Christ, our relationship to sin changes.
Speaker 2:So this is to your question where's our hope? Our relationship to sin changes in Christ because we're united to him. Adam and Eve were able to sin. When we're born, we're united to him. Adam and Eve were able to sin when we're born. We're not able to not sin, but in Christ, romans 6 tells us that we are actually able to not sin.
Speaker 2:Okay, you tracking with me. So it changes in each. So we are actually now. We will never do it perfectly, but we actually, because of the indwelling Holy Spirit, can say every time a temptation comes our way, we actually have the power to say no. That's what Romans 6 tells us. And then the beautiful thing that we look forward to in the fourth part of the story, in the new heavens and the new earth, is that one day we will not be able to sin. And that's why, like Nancy Guthrie wrote a book called Even Better Than Eden. That's why the new heavens and the new earth are even better than Eden, because where they were able to sin, we will be not able to sin. So our hope today is only to be united to Christ and, by his power, to be able to say no to reigning sin.
Speaker 1:Thank God, I just listen to you. I'm just like, oh my gosh. So excited for that day and grateful that the power of sin has been defeated in my life, like I'm no longer a slave to sin, I'm a slave to righteousness, because Jesus has placed that on me through his death on the cross.
Speaker 2:And that's what we live in, that's what we walk in, not perfectly. We fall all the time, fail all the time.
Speaker 1:I feel like one thing that I've been thinking about this last year and maybe you can help me understand it when I was like I was really struggling with something and I was just sad about my sin and thinking about how he does clothe us with his righteousness. That concept is like hard for me to think about, but it was helpful. I needed to be reminded that I've been clothed with his righteousness so I can walk in that, but I can walk in the freedom and joy that his blood covered, even when I fall. But I have the power of his righteousness put on me. We've received his righteousness. I don't even know I don't even know really the question I'm trying to ask, but really I was trying to understand that more what that means for us that we've been clothed with his righteousness, even here on earth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that we had a professor that would talk about the heartbeat of the Christian life. And you know, a heartbeat is a two beat, right? Boom, boom, boom, boom, like that. That's the heartbeat. And so he said the heartbeat of the Christian life is also two beats. It's death and resurrection.
Speaker 2:And so, in the same way that scripture so often will say, put off these things and put on these things right, walk away from these things and walk into these things and die to these things and live in these things. And so it's always that two beat heartbeat of our life is that we die to sin and we live in righteousness. We walk away from the things that are of the flesh and we walk into the things that are of the spirit. And so there are so many different ways to think about it, but it's never just put off or it's never just put on In the same way. It's never God just saves you from something. No, he saves you for something. And so there's always, like the, both the death and resurrection. And I do think that's helpful to think about that and to remember that.
Speaker 1:No, that's super. That's super helpful. I love that. Okay, what do the Ten Commandments have to do with God's rescue mission?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, first of all, understanding where they occur is key. So again, we're reading the story. And so, if the Ten Commandments, if we're reading the story and God's people are, they've found themselves in Egypt and they've grown into this large people group and they're enslaved by the Egyptians. If God had given them the Ten Commandments there and then gone in to save them, then their entire salvation would have rested on their obedience, their ability to keep the law. But that's not what he did. He went in of his own will, of his own volition, out of his mercy, out of his kindness, and he just rescued a group of slaves. That's what he did, brought them to himself at the base of Mount Sinai. So we're reading Exodus 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. Exodus 19, he brings them to himself and he says you are my treasured possession, like I love you, you are precious to me, you belong to me, you're mine, you're in a relationship to me, you're going to be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. That's Exodus 19. And then Exodus 20 are the 10 commandments. So he's already saved them, not because they kept the law. He's already told them that they belong to him, that he loves them, that they are his children. He's given them an identity, he's given them a mission You're going to be a kingdom of priests. And then he gives them the law, and this is how they're going to do it. This is not how they earn his love. This is how they respond to his love. This is not how they become his children. This is how they act like his children. And so the same is true for us, right? We don't obey the law to earn our salvation. We obey the law because we love God and we want to bear his image.
Speaker 2:That's a key part of the story that starts in Genesis is that we're created in his image and we have to be told how to bear that image. And part the floor is you know well, okay, at bare minimum, don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, don't covet, don't commit adultery, like. But is that the greatest thing you can say about our God? Is that he's not a murderer, not a liar, not a thief? I mean no. The greatest thing that we know about God is that he's merciful and faithful and holy and kind and all of these things. And so the ceiling of his character lifts our eyes to see his beauty and his grandeur, but the floor is kind of the bare minimum. It's like the lowest possible way that we're going to bear his image and act like his people is that floor. We don't lie but that we tell the truth, that we don't steal but that we're generous. And so Jesus really fleshes that out right in the Sermon on the Mount. But the law does show us, it gives us a way to begin to bear his image.
Speaker 1:All of those were so helpful. And, yes, the law has been fulfilled by Jesus. But why is it still important for us to obey those 10 commandments today? You kind of spoke a little bit to bearing his image, but yeah, why?
Speaker 2:is that.
Speaker 1:It's not just Old Testament, this old book, that oh no. Why is that actually still important for us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think for two reasons, maddie. It's a great question. The first is we try and we realize we don't even keep those, we don't even keep the floor right. We try and we realize we don't even keep those, we don't even keep the floor right. So it drives us to Jesus in despair, like I can't even do the bare minimum, and so I literally need somebody who can do that for me. And that's what Jesus did. He perfectly fulfilled, kept the law.
Speaker 2:But the other thing then is that in Christ and I know that it's not my righteousness keeping the law, I know that it's not my salvation keeping the law but what it does is it shows me again not only how to bear his image but how to love others. Right, the two greatest commandments are that we love God and love others. So how do I love them? How do I cause the flourishing of the community of the people of God? Well, that's a start. That's the floor on which we stand. I mean it's not flourishing of the community of the people of God?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a start. That's the floor on which we stand. I mean it's not flourishing for us if I steal from you or lie to you or you know, or murder in my heart, I mean, those are not, and so it gives us a way. It's mercy, it's grace, it's like oh, this is a lifeline for understanding how to live as God would have us live. It's the fence that keeps us safe and secure and walking in his fields that are free and beautiful and open, but the law keeps us there.
Speaker 1:That's so helpful. It reminds me of how God's word tells us that it's a mirror to us and it's going to pierce through our soul. And I think of, in one of Jen Wilkins' books, how she's like when I read he's slow to anger, he's abounding in steadfast love. I'm reminded I am not. I need help by the power of the spirit and I need someone to cover that sin when it happens again today and the next day. But then his blood does cover it and we walk in freedom and in righteousness. Like you said, turn away from that, turn towards him and walk in that, and that's freeing and encouraging.
Speaker 2:It is freeing, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2:It's just such the kindness of the Lord. Oh, freeing and encouraging. It is freeing, isn't it? Yeah, it's beautiful, it's just such the kindness of the Lord.
Speaker 1:Okay, today we find ourselves immersed in the story between the first coming of Christ and the grand finale, jesus returning the second coming of Christ. What part do we play here and now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's really the only reason we're left. So why is there? I mean this, this world is a world of brokenness and suffering and hardship. It is, you know, a dry and weary land. I mean, this is, this is a hard place to live, right and um?
Speaker 2:So why, when God saves us, does he not just take us home to glory, which is going to be, like Paul said, so much better by far? I mean, jesus was like today you'll be with me in paradise. I mean, who doesn't want that? Right, we're supposed to long for that, but he leaves us here and we can go back and see what he said to his disciples on the night before his crucifixion. He leaves us here. He says in John 17, which is this prayer, that he prays before he was crucified, and he prays that they will be sent into the world, as he was sent into the world, and that through them, the world might believe that he was sent, that he is and that by believing they'll have life in his name. And so that's our mission we get to be tethered to and absorbed into this story.
Speaker 2:God's story is a story of the redemption of all things, and so he pulls us into that. He anchors our life in the story. He's like and you have a part to play, like I've created you so uniquely and I have strategically placed you and you are going to live in light of the story. I mean that's our calling and you are going to live in light of the story. I mean that's our calling. And so we look at the story to understand okay, how do I live in light of this thing? And there's so many different parts and pieces to it that I'd love to get into. I don't think we have the time for all of it. But it's that understanding that we get to be a part of this great story and it's really not just our ultimate purpose, it's really our only purpose in being here is to be extenders of God's kingdom.
Speaker 1:Oh, and that's so encouraging because whoever's listening to this, like you said, that it's he specifically uniquely made you and placed you and the sweetness is that looks like whatever's right in front of you, living and sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ, loving your neighbors more than yourself and following the Ten Commandments and, out of that, then, living and loving those around us in your home, at your job. It might not look like this beautiful, wonderful TGC conference that's going to happen. That's such a gift and a blessing and amazing. It might look like you also saying hi to the barista and listening to the spirit and asking him oh, are you wanting me? Who do you have when I walk into this coffee shop? Is there anyone here that you're longing for me to? Like, strike up a conversation with and love and see, and that's like, yeah, the kind.
Speaker 1:Again back to the kindness of god. Like he's one thing I feel, like he continually showing me, like, hey, go small for the kingdom, not that he he'll do big things, he'll do big things whatever he wants to do with our like, go small and follow and pursue him, you know, and that's free. Again, it's so much freedom. Walking with the Lord is so much freedom and fun.
Speaker 2:What the world calls big or small is upside down in the kingdom of God. I mean, he loves hidden faithfulness, he looks for hidden faithfulness. And you know those conferences like they're so fun, but they're three days every other year for all of us, right? I mean that's not where any of us live. I do think they can encourage and be formative, but yeah, they're not. Most of us, you know, we live our day-to-day lives standing at the kitchen sink or at the grocery store, at the coffee shop. I mean that's where we all live our day-to-day lives, and so the faithfulness that he's looking for are in all of those moments.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I love that so encouraging. Okay, what Well one. Everyone, go order. I'm going to link her book in the show notes, but go order her book. I can't wait to read it and I can't wait to it and I can't wait to see the Lord bring understanding of his great narrative. I have written in the front of my Bible just that reminder of how it is one grand, big story, and I have someone had said this once and it's you know, old Testament, pointing to the cross, anticipates and predicts Jesus's life, death and resurrection of Jesus and his redemption. And the New Testament points back to the cross, anticipates and predicts Jesus's life, death and resurrection of Jesus and his redemption. And the New Testament points back to the cross, proclaims and applies the cross to our life.
Speaker 1:And I continually need the reminder that it's one big story, and so I'm excited to read your book and grateful for your labor over it. What is one or two things that God has taught you through this book writing and publishing process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, first of all that it's hard yeah, yeah, it's definitely an active obedience for me to sit down and look at a blank page and pray and ask the Lord to give me something for that. It's definitely hard work for me. But, um, you know that that he and I think back to what we said in the beginning. Just, no matter what, it is like I'm turning in a manuscript tomorrow on another Bible study and just again, lord, if it would be helpful, like if it would be helpful, then thank you.
Speaker 2:Like, praise God, and that you know we all walk in obedience to what the Lord has for us, but never and I remember writing from Garden to Glory for the first time and thinking I feel obedient in writing it, but I have no idea what you're going to do with it and that's not in my hands. That is up to him, right? So, whatever it is and I've faced that dilemma multiple times in my life where I don't get to put, I can't have a perceived outcome on obedience. And so, no matter what it is, whether it's writing a book or starting a podcast or anything, we can't put an outcome on that. That belongs to the Lord. But we are called to walk in faith and obedience to what he has called us to do.
Speaker 1:That's so encouraging and I'm sure, through your act of obedience, the way that he's changed your heart, regardless of if anyone buys this book or reads it, like I even think with these conversations I'm always like God. I got to walk away like stirred up from this person and like, so, thank you, even if, like, not one person listens to this episode. A few weeks ago, by God's grace, I got to baptize a girl I'm discipling and it's like a group of gals that, like they, they're in college and they're a team, and so there's more new gals every year, type of thing, and, by God's grace, he brings some of them into the fold. And, oh, my goodness, and this was my sixth year with this team and the first two years it was really just God digging up stuff out of my own heart of hey, we're going to have to sift up man's approval. I don't care if they think you're annoying or weird or blah, blah, blah. I'm calling you to love them. You text them, you tell them you love them, you tell them you cherish them. I'm going to dig up a fear of man that I want you to be free in me. So it's actually like this is more about you quote unquote.
Speaker 1:Like me digging up stuff, and one of the other things was the first couple of years. Specifically, he was like you might not see any fruit, or you might, and it doesn't matter, you get to obey. And so all that to say two weeks ago, oh, I was emotional, like I'm just, like God, you didn't have to let me see fruit of these, like 10 gals that are like that you've saved, I'm all in and you brought me to this place of I'm all in, regardless of you know, if there's any external fear, because I know you're doing, you're doing a million things I can't even see, you know, but his kindness to give us those glimpses Right Of, oh, that was helpful, courtney, and if anyone ever even says even remotely, I was encouraged by your podcast, I'm like you don't know, that's the Lord encouraging me through you to keep going.
Speaker 1:He doesn't have to do that.
Speaker 2:Exactly, but he does. Yes, exactly. I love that. And learning to take the affirmation, take the criticism, hold them up to the Lord and say what do you have for me in this? And then receive what he has for you in it. And then let it go, both of them, Because it's so easy to let either one of those go back through our mind and we have to push away from that. Right, but he does have something for us in the encouragement. Part of it is like keep going or hey, this is an area like this, I'm affirming your gift in this or whatever it is. But yeah, to receive those as from the Lord is a spiritual discipline.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's so good. Okay, you've written many Bible studies. How was the process of writing this book different from writing the Bible studies, and which do you enjoy more, if there is one?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. So I don't know if I can really answer that, because I wrote this first as a Bible study, so it was like I structured it. But I was talking to a friend yesterday who's written he's written a lot of commentaries, and so we were talking about commentaries and Bible studies. The structure of what you're writing is already there because you just follow the structure of the text, and so it's a lot easier in that I'm looking at a new book project and it's the structure that's killing me. I feel like if I had the structure I could fill in, but that's a huge difference for me is knowing how to approach it, and so in a Bible study it's a little bit more in the text Now, not this one, because this was the entire story but there are key moments in the story that you know. Those are what we're going to hone in on and say, OK, this is foundational in our understanding of the storyline, and so the structuring of it is definitely the hardest part for me.
Speaker 1:Okay, so fun, so cool. Okay, what is a lie that you've believed that God has had to, or maybe still is, uprooting in your heart, and what gospel truth has he been reminding you, or reminded you, to squash that lie?
Speaker 2:I love that. I mean from early on, and you know, we all have to know our own stories. We have to know but I don't think I'm unique in this at all, in that one of the hardest lies, that, and really early on, one of the first lies he had to demolish was that my worth was tied to my performance, and so that was just very I think I was very performance driven and to do the right things and be in the right things. And you know, whatever, whatever the performance was, I wanted to, you know, to achieve that, and so that was one of the first things that he demolished.
Speaker 2:And the scripture that he used is not going to be surprising at all, but Ephesians 2, 8 and 10. But to sit in that, because it's a passage that's not unfamiliar for anybody who's walked with the Lord for even a short amount of time, but to really sit in it. And it says for, by grace, you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing. It is the gift of God. That's verse eight. And so to sit in that idea of the gift of God. And then he goes on.
Speaker 2:Paul writes in verse nine not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. And so there was just so much in that. Not only that, you know, we're saved by grace, not by works, not by performance, but that he has these good works for us, but they are. We walk in them because they're his good works. They're not our good works. And so even the ongoing act of of walking in the good works that are his, that are for me, and they're not mine for him, they're his for me that's super helpful, and the freedom of he's already prepared them Like we don't have to like muster up they're already there, like just God, give me eyes to see and the willingness to say yes, to walk in love.
Speaker 1:You've already planned.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, what is a piece of marriage advice? You have four children, you have grandchildren, you have what? Wow? You have a thriving marriage, beautiful marriage. What marriage advice do you have for the married folk out there? Or marriage advice that you received, that you loved?
Speaker 2:Well, I think James 4, where he just says humble yourself. I think that that's just to consistently. I was talking with a friend Saturday and we were talking about standing in the righteousness of Christ, and then we started talking about standing in the humility of Christ. And so what does it look like in an argument, in a disagreement, in the moments where you're just so tempted to's the most? That's made the biggest change in just even my own the moments of my marriage is what does it look like to stand in humility in that moment? And it doesn't mean that you don't speak or that you don't participate, it's all of it. But what does it look like to be humble in that moment?
Speaker 1:So helpful, so hard, but we can do it by the power of the spirit. Yep, my husband and I joke that and we've only been married six years, so we're children. But we joke that marriage is continually humbling yourself and apologizing until you die. Like that's Yep, and I fail at like the amount of times I fail at that. I'm like Lord. You know, after however many years of marriage, that if you just move toward him in humility, like the disarming and it's so hard for like I'm like God. I even know that that's right and help me. And I'll now think of what you said, the reminder of the put off. Put on. God, help me, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even just in my own heart and mind, what does it look like to? To stand in humility.
Speaker 1:It's, yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 2:It's so hard, lord help us.
Speaker 1:Cause I love to be right. Ooh, I love to be right, I love it. Okay, what is a piece of scripture the Lord is currently using to encourage, exhort or convict you with lately?
Speaker 2:I think I said it earlier, but Romans 8, 32. So a few years ago I wrote a Bible study on the book of Romans, and this was not. You know, Romans 8 is a very it's a chapter we go to a lot. It starts off with therefore, there is now, you know, no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, and it ends with there is no separation. So it's this beautiful chapter in all of scripture, Romans 8.
Speaker 2:But there was a verse that I really didn't, I wasn't as familiar with, and it's the one I said just a few minutes ago Romans 8, 32. And it says he who did not spare his own son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also, with them, graciously give us all things, and up for us all? How will he not also, with them, graciously give us all things? And that has just.
Speaker 2:It's an argument from the greater to the lesser. So it's saying he's already given you the greatest thing. He's already given you the thing that should never have been given, right? I mean, it's his son. How in the world is he not, if he was willing to do that, how is he not going to give you everything else you need? And so that has just been a verse that has been just sitting on my soul for the last few years, to both convict and encourage. It convicts that those things that I think I need so badly if I did, he actually would have already given them but then also to encourage that he's going to give me all things that I need. And so he's kind, he's merciful, he's gracious, he's good, he's so, so good. And he's not withholding good things. He's not a God that withholds things. He's a God who gives everything.
Speaker 1:So good, so good. Okay, someone is out there, by God's grace, listening to this and maybe for the first time, thinking I want to respond to the gospel, I want to know and follow Jesus. What is a tangible next step for them? What advice do you have for?
Speaker 2:them. First of all, praise God. So if you right now, if you're driving in your car, or if you are on a walk, or if you are in your your car, or if you are on a walk, or if you are in your kitchen, or if you are in the grocery store, wherever you are, literally stop right now and just bow your head. Just pause this. Come back to it. I'm going to give you a second Pause. It Bow your head and just talk to the Lord. If you are not alone, if you are in a public place, talk quietly. If you are not in a public place, talk out loud. But you just don't let the conviction pass. If the Lord is calling you, bow your head and just. You don't have to have the right words.
Speaker 2:You are not saved because of your understanding. You're not saved because even you're not saved because you don't have any doubts. You're not saved because you don't question any of it. You're not saved because you don't have any doubts. You're not saved because you don't question any of it. You're saved because God is graciously working in your life and he's provided his son. And so scripture tells us confess with your mouth, believe in your heart that you need a savior and that God provided one. His name is Jesus, and confess with your mouth that he is Lord and he is Savior, and you will be saved, and then you're going to be on a lifelong journey of increasing your understanding, aligning your life. He's not going to leave you alone. He'll never leave you or forsake you, but bow your head and talk to him.
Speaker 1:So good, so good. Okay, we're going to wrap up our time together with some rapid fire questions. Keyword rapid key whip. Are you ready? Okay, rapid fire questions Keyword rapid key whip. Are you ready? Okay, I'm ready, I'm ready, okay.
Speaker 2:Most impactful verse on your life all time Romans 8.1.
Speaker 1:There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Speaker 2:Favorite book all time the Bible, besides the Bible, besides the Bible. To Kill a Mockingbird. To Kill a Mockingbird.
Speaker 1:Favorite song right now? If you're a song, goodness of God Favorite song all time. Cro, you're a song person.
Speaker 2:Goodness of God Favorite song of all time, crocodile Rock. Those are almost the same right Little Elton John Little.
Speaker 1:Elton John. That's awesome, come on.
Speaker 2:I can't not dance when that comes on. I just can't not dance to that, true, true. Favorite food Chicken fried steak.
Speaker 1:Amazing Favorite Bible teacher to listen to so. I mean, I have way too many friends that are good.
Speaker 2:So Nancy, Jen, Melissa, Jackie, I mean yeah.
Speaker 1:I'll link them all. I'll link all of them More so, yeah, so I can share Exactly.
Speaker 2:I mean, I can't pick one, they're so amazing.
Speaker 1:So many Favorite pod, or do you have another favorite podcast or any other that you want to throw? This one is my new favorite.
Speaker 2:This one. Knowing Faith, journey Women those are going to be two of my favorites. For all the young mamas out there, risen Motherhood. There are so many good podcasts out there. But yeah, knowing Faith, journey Women those are my go-tos.
Speaker 1:Yeah, something not many people know about you.
Speaker 2:I am a really good boat driver.
Speaker 1:That's amazing, that's a great skill to have.
Speaker 2:Do you guys have?
Speaker 1:a boat.
Speaker 2:My parents do. So I grew up on the water and, yeah, that's awesome. Maybe I shouldn't have said really good. Maybe I should just say I'm a boat driver. I also drive a tractor and a bobcat.
Speaker 1:That's okay, I'm impressed. I'm impressed. That is impressive. I'll just defer. That's impressive and I'm glad to know that about you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1:Okay, what are you loving right now? Could be literally anything.
Speaker 2:Well, my husband is outside building a barn for us, so I'm loving that. I've ridden horses my whole life, so he's building a barn right now and I'm going to get some ponies for the grandkids, so I'm pretty pumped about that.
Speaker 1:Okay, grandma of the year, that's amazing. Okay, how can our friends listening today be praying for you?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm. You know I'm turning in a manuscript on Wednesday and then turning my attention to prepare for the conference, and I would love prayers for that.
Speaker 1:It's so exciting. Oh, my goodness, anything else we didn't talk about. Well, courtney, we'll have you back on the podcast. You'll be in Omaha. We'll record live. We We'll have you back on the podcast at some point.
Speaker 2:You'll be in Omaha. We'll record live.
Speaker 1:We'll do it. Let's do it live. That'd be so fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to do it. We're going to do it.
Speaker 1:Okay, where can our listeners find you if you want to be found, if you have a website or anywhere, or social media, I do.
Speaker 2:I have a website. It's just my name, courtneydoctor Love to find people there.
Speaker 1:Amazing, courtney, this has been such a blessing. I've learned so much going to be chewing on so much that you said, yeah, just grateful for your love for the Lord and the ways that he's gifted you to teach about his word to others. So thank you for taking the time to be here. Thanks for having me. This was fun. Okay, I love this conversation chewing on so many different things, so encouraged by so many different things. So encouraged by so many different things.
Speaker 1:I cannot wait to read her book From Garden to Glory. Go order it today and, if you haven't yet, head to the show notes and subscribe to my emails to receive truth, words from the week, resources, updates on all the things. You can also head to my website, maddyschultzco, for more resources, words that I've written, all the things. Friends, if this episode was encouraging to you in any way, would you share it with your friends and family? Would you share it to your social media spaces? I would so, so appreciate it. Would you take a minute to leave a review? That is so helpful and helps these episodes get into the ears of more listeners. Friends, as always, I would love to connect with you. You can reach me at maddieatsunnyand65.com. That's M-A-D-I at sunnyand65.com. Friends, go be bold and love big, and we will see you next time.